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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:08 pm 
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Who was the hair found in Tutankhamuns tomb labled to have been from? Did it metion anywhere who they were to Tutankhamun, himself?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:40 pm 
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It was labelled in the tomb as belonging to Queen Tiy, it also belonged to the mummy now known as the "elder lady", who is generally accepted as being Queen Tiy. There is a little speculation over her actual identity with theories ranging from Nefertiti to one of Tutankhamun's half sisters.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:15 pm 
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Was it labled that by Howard Cartar , I mean did the Ancient Egyptians lable it? Yes the "Elder Lady" does have many theories as to who she was?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:20 pm 
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It was buried in a minature sarcophagus bearing the name of Queen Tiy. The theories linking the elder lady to Nefertiti say that it was merely reburied in the casket of Queen Tiy.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:36 pm 
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Yes , I guess that is possible.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:15 am 
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But surely it is more likely that it did belong to Queen Tiy. It bears her name, in the tomb of her descendant (Nefertiti was a stepmother, Tiy his grandmother/mother). It matches with the hair of the elder lady, long though of as being that of Queen Tiy. Why is it so hard to think that it could be Queen Tiy?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:13 am 
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Si-amun wrote:
. It matches with the hair of the elder lady, long though of as being that of Queen Tiy. Why is it so hard to think that it could be Queen Tiy?


For a couple of reasons Si-Amun. The first one being it wasn't found as you explained. It was found in Tutankhamun's tomb, i do believe you just made an mistake when you said in Queen Tiy's tomb. Second, while it was found in an minature sarcophagus, with Queen Tiy's name on it. That minature sarcophagus was fitted inside several other minature sarcophagus'. Not a single one of them matched the other ones they were nesttled in. In other words at some point in time, someone just fitted all these empty sarcophagus' together. It isn't even known for sure if the hair was the original purpose for the sarcophagus that it was found in. Thirdly, as Dr. James points out that if the sarcophagus, was originally for the hair there is no reason not to consider that it was a funerary gift from a daughter-in-law. That when Queen Tiy's body was moved from Akhetaten to Thebes this gift just didn't make it back into a tomb until Tutankhamun was buried. Fourthly, to take a so questionable find such as hair from a group of mismatched objects and to regard it as belonging to just one person. Doesn't allow for human manipulations from the time of encasement. Sixth, then to use it as the only means of identification of a mummy that has a consistant hair type. When we are talking about a family where brother, sister marriages were historical is pretty arrogant of modern scholars. And lastly but not least, the age of the mummy in question more closely fits the age of Nefertiti at death, than her elderly mother-in-law who died shortly before Nefertiti, in so far as archaeological findings can show.

You asked why it is so hard to think the hair, and mummy is Queen Tiy? For lots of reasons as i have just given you 7. Are you perhaps under some illusion that the Elder Lady was identified through means other than this lock of hair found in Tutankhamun's tomb? It wasn't Si-Amun. The only identification of Elder Lady as Queen Tiy is based upon this lock of hair. And that identification is pretty slim.

Think on this example for a minute. i cut a lock of my hair, put it in an envelope marked Kiya. Does this make the hair Kiya's or a gift from grandma for Kiya?
(and yes, my granddaughter is named Kiya)


Last edited by Sekhmet on Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:28 am 
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I am alittle confused you stated that when the name Kiya was on written it could be Kiya's hair or a gift to Kiya from her Grandmother. In Tut's case it said Tiye so the hair could be Tiya's or it could be Tiye's Grandmothers?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:11 am 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
I am alittle confused you stated that when the name Kiya was on written it could be Kiya's hair or a gift to Kiya from her Grandmother. In Tut's case it said Tiye so the hair could be Tiya's or it could be Tiye's Grandmothers?


i am sorry Ankhesenamun3 that i didn't make it clear. Your talking about my example nothing else. If i (Sekhmet) cut a lock of my hair and place it in an envelope marked for my granddaughter (Kiya). Because the lock of hair from me is in a container marked with someone's else's name. Do you know from whom the hair came from? Is that less confusing?

It is the samething as the hair found in Tutankhamun's tomb, just because it is found in a container labled Tiy, doesn't mean that Tiy put her hair in it. It means only that someone found a lock of hair and put it in a container labled Tiy.

i hope this helps to clear up your confusion.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:42 am 
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:) Yes , that does , Thanks.

:arrow: But, I think while the hair may not have been from Tiye it must have been from someone around her. I mean why would they want to put someone not related at all to Tiye , hair in a case baring Tiye's name. Maybe , like the theory goes that Tut had a speedy burial. But , still to me it seems un-likely that they would just grab a case with the name Tiye on it an place someone elses hair in it. Without removing Tiye's name and replacing it with the owner of the hairs name.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:46 am 
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Sorry, let me explain it better. It was found in the tomb of Tutankhamun but in a casket bearing the name of Queen Tiy. I didn't phrase that at all well. Sorry.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:59 am 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
:) Yes , that does , Thanks.

:arrow: But, I think while the hair may not have been from Tiye it must have been from someone around her. I mean why would they want to put someone not related at all to Tiye , hair in a case baring Tiye's name. Maybe , like the theory goes that Tut had a speedy burial. But , still to me it seems un-likely that they would just grab a case with the name Tiye on it an place someone elses hair in it. Without removing Tiye's name and replacing it with the owner of the hairs name.


i am glad we got that cleared up. :) We weren't there so we don't know. That's another reason why i like Dr. James solution to the problem. It might have been a funerary gift from the Elder Lady to Queen Tiy. The age of the Elder Lady makes her more likely to be Nefertiti than Tiy, or Meritaten. With a mean average age of 32, if Elder Lady is Queen Tiy that means to have had her younger son's children giving her great-grandchildren before she died. She would have had to have started having children before the age of 12.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:08 pm 
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If one believes that the Akhenaten was the son of Tiy, and Tutankhamun was the son of Ankhenaten then surely it is possible for Tiy to have died quite young. If we say that she had Akhenaten in her teens, it is possible for Tutankhamun to have been born while she was in her late thirties, making it not impossible for her to be the elder lady. Sekhmet, do you think that the elder lady is actually Queen Nefertiti? I just want to know what your arguments FOR it being Nefertiti are apart from just the age of the mummy.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:45 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
If one believes that the Akhenaten was the son of Tiy, and Tutankhamun was the son of Ankhenaten then surely it is possible for Tiy to have died quite young. If we say that she had Akhenaten in her teens, it is possible for Tutankhamun to have been born while she was in her late thirties, making it not impossible for her to be the elder lady. Sekhmet, do you think that the elder lady is actually Queen Nefertiti? I just want to know what your arguments FOR it being Nefertiti are apart from just the age of the mummy.


It is rather hard to consider your example Si-Amun. i was considering the acceptence that Meketaten, Akhenaten's second daughter dies supposedly in childbirth prior to Queen Tiy's death. Again making Tiy more elderly than the mean average age of Elder Lady. It is generally accepted that Akhenaten was one of Tiy's later children, so her age may have been in the late teens when he was born. Or even early twenty's.

Yes, again i do believe Elder Lady is Nefertiti like i have written Dr. Susan James articles convinced me. For full arguments for it Si-Amun please see the articles already given in previous posts.

However here is a few other as well from a previous posts.

The Tiye identification of Elder Lady has never been totally accepted as you imply. Almost from the start there have been real objections to it.

So, let us ask the experts. Akhenaten, King of Egypt by Cyril Aldred pgs 104, 105. "The Elder Lady B, number 61070, recently has been identified as Queen Tiye, but this conclusion has since been challenged."(this identification was established by the skull measurements, and hair by the Alexandria-Michigan venture.) Continuing with Dr. Aldred's statements. "Recently, however objections against these findings of the Alexandria-Michigan team have been raised by Dr. Renate Germer on serveral grounds, including what she regards as defective methodology. THe age of the mummy number 61070 at death is against its identification as Queen Tiye. The blood group of the mummy shows that while in theory it could be a daughter of Yuya and Tuyu this is not very probable. Further, the process of identifying family relationships on the basis of skull measurements is considered too uncertian for any proper conclusion to emerge. Lastly the hair analysis provides no proof that the mummy is Tiye. Until further investigations have confirmed its identity beyond conjecture the verdict, in the words of the Scots Law, will have to remain not proven."

The Alexandria-Michigan team work took place back in the early 70's. While the science used has improved greatly since then, The Elder Lady mummy number 61070 has not been retested.

Let us ask another expert. Dr. Susan E. James, from the above referred to article from KMT A Modern Joural of Ancient Egypt Volume 12, Number 2, Summer 2001. Titled "Who is Mummy Elder Lady?" pages 42-50. From pg. 44, "Therefore in any reading of known events Tiye would have been over 40 years old at her death.... James Harris and Edward Wente made the determination from several physical delimiters (including toothwear, and loss, epiphyiseal union, pubic symphycis, etc) that the overall age at death for Elder Lady is between 25 and 35 years with 29.2 years as the average. This does not conform to the historically determined age range of Queen Tiye."
From pgs 46-47 "Two points of reference on the facial features of Mummy 61070 the chin and the philtrum offer additional clues to her identity. Elder Lady's jaw line is distinctively square and broad across the mandible essentially the same configuration consistently depicted in the scuplted heads of Neferitit. Tiye's chin in 3D sculpted images on the other hand is rounded and distinctly more pointed than Nefertiti. The second significant reference point on the faces is the philtrum, that small grooved or depression which runs from the nose to the bow of the upper lip. In the Elder Lady the philtrum is quite pronounced as it is on the various sculpted heads of Nefertiti. Tiye's philtrum, contrarily is so faint that it is barely noticable. Visually all the busts of Nefertiti which originated in the workshop of the sculptor Djehutymes at Akhetaten compare very favorably with the configuration of the face of the Elder Lady including facial feathures, skull shape,and hyperelongated neck. The bone structure apparent in the painted limestone bust of the queen in Berlin and that of the Elder Lady appear all but identical- any discrepancies being due to the differences between sculpted stone and desiccated flesh on bone. The full mouth, square jaw, narrow nose, wide set eyes, grooved philtrum, high cheekbones broad forehead, and the lenght of the neck match each other point for point."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:11 pm 
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Okay , Maybe the Elder lady is Nefertiti. But her daughter Meritaten also may fit. But , the only thing is the age is Meritaten , believed to have lived to be 29?


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