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Interesting theory, Kiya...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:40 am 
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It is also suspected that Mutemweya was related to Tiye. I've read it several times.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:02 am 
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I've not seen that anywhere but I have seen that Mutemwiya was possibly a foreign princess. I have also seem many books that speculated Yuya and Tuya were foreign also, so maybe Mutemwiya was related to Tiy.


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Queen Tiye
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:31 pm 
I noticed the wondering about Queen Tiye's origin. First off the scupltured head that shows her to be dark skinned, is yew wood a naturally dark wood it does not mean she was dark. Egypt imported most of it's wood, and artists used what was available.
Her Nubian appearence in the yew wood head could indicate the heightened acceptence of Nubian culture. That the colonizing started by Tuthmosis III was producing in the increasing international court of her husband.
The mummies of her parents, Yuya, and Thuyu, if we chose to believe the ancients, are not those of Nubians or other African peoples. "In fact, the remarkably well-preserved mummified bodies of Yuya, Thuyu do not show the Central African appearence which was been assigned to Tiye. While Yuya has been interpreted as having an unusual almost European physiognomy Thuyu is generally regarded as a typical Egyptian woman." Joyce Tydesley, Nefertiti, Penquin Books, 1999, pg 22.
It would be hard for Tiye to be Nubian or a dark skinned African if her parents were not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:18 am 
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Africa

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The ancient Egyptians were black Africans. They just happened to be a lighter shade of black than the Nubians. Everything about the ancient Egyptian culture exudes Africaness.


Wrong. While there was certainly a population in Egypt that exuded clearly black/negroid features, it is thoroughly preposterous to claim that the entire/main population of Egypt was of a black/African complexion. Busts, art, frescos, reliefs etc. from ancient Egypt all contradict such a wildly misinformed conclusion. Just for an example, have you ever observed the all too famous and ubiquitous bust of Nefertiti? Her complexion is clearly tan and her features are distinctly NOT negroid.

Ancient Egyptian skin complexion ranged from tan to dark to lighter skinned and even black, but to define Egyptian race in general to be that of “black/Negroid” simply because some were present is absolutely absurd.

In order to arrive at a compromise in portraying ancient Egyptians, they are generally considered and portrayed to be of a tan/dark tan complexion, although occasionally illustrated as both light skinned and black as well, depending on the circumstances.

Intermarriage, however, between Egyptian kings with foreign daughters from Semitic kings during the New Kingdom for political purposes could also have contributed to lighter shades being more manifest in some of the royal families. On the other hand, the presence of Negroid features among a population of ancient Egyptians could have been partially due to Nubians finding integration.

Additionally, the scorching, blistering sun undoubtedly kept the race at a constant tendency to be of a darker complexion, especially those of the lower class who worked outdoors.

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Queen Tiye was not suggestively black, she was. So were the rest before the foreign invasions, i.e., Macedonian, Roman.


First of all, there is evidence that suggests Tiy was not Egyptian, but was actually a foreigner. Some have concluded that she was a princess of Mitanni, or of some other Semitic origin, while others have said she was from Nubia, either way, your assertions are wholly without merit.

And if I were you, I'd give up this whole fantasy of yours.

BTW Guest2, I tend to agree with your conclusions. Also, have you seen a portrait of Tiy by Winnifred Brunton? She does an excellent job. Tiy is shown with extremely fair skin.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:58 am 
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Originally posted by Meritaton

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It is also suspected that Mutemweya was related to Tiye. I've read it several times.
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Yes if she was rwlated to Tiy then it could explain how Tiy ended up as Great Royal Wife with no royal blood except through Mutemwiya. Mutemwiya could have thrown Tiy and the young Amenhotep together as children. It does seem that there was a close bond between them judging from the so-called marriage scarabs, even though Amenhotep was only about 12 I believe.

For those who believe Tiy was of a foreign extraction her relationship to Mutemwiya could possible explain this. Mutemwiya was the daughter of Artatama I, King of Mittani.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:20 pm 
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Tiye, the beautiful Chief Queen of Amenhotep III and mother of Akhenaten, was the matriarch of the Amarna family. Her marriage to the pharaoh Amenhotep III is heralded early in Amenhotep III's reign on what is now referred to as "the marriage scarab," part of series of inscribed scarabs commissioned by Amenhotep III in order to commemorate important events in his reign.
The romantically inclined historians of the 1800s and turn of the century believed that Tiye was a commoner who caught the attention of the young pharaoh. This belief arose in part because the commemorative scarabs mentioned the names of her parents, but gave no titles (Aldred, 1987). In actuality, she was of noble or perhaps even royal stock.
Her father, Yuya, had been commander of the chariotry under Tuthmose IV (Aldred, 1987). This particular occupation was actually new to the 18th dynasty, since at the beginning of that dynasty a standing army had been created in Egypt for the first time.
Tiye's mother, Thuya, was Superintendent of the Harem of Min of Akhmim and of Amun of Thebes during the reign of Thutmose IV, and was probably a descendant of Ahmose Nefertari, the first queen of the 18th dynasty. In the 18th dynasty, the royal bloodline passed through the female royalty, and it took marriage to a descendent of Ahmose Nefertari to legitimize a pharaoh's kingship. Therefore, Tiye would have been the Heiress Princess, next in line for the queenship (Aldred, 1987).
Tiye was probably not full Egyptian. While her mother bore distinctly Egyptian features, her father did not. He had an unusual build for an Egyptian, so some have speculated that he may have been Asiatic. Cyril Aldred says that this is not unlikely, since Asiatics "had the reputation of being skilled in the government of horses..." (1987). Others believe that Tiye's features and dark skin as represented in artwork from the time indicate sub-Saharan African origins. This matter is hotly debated. It is a dispute not likely to be settled in the near future.

Life During the Reign of Amenhotep III:
Tiye was probably married to Amenhotep III at a very early age, although just how old she was at the time is uncertain. She was given a good deal of clout during her husbands reign, during which the cult of the now deified Ahmose Nefertari (whom Tiye came to represent in the cult) expanded (Aldred, 1987). The name Tiye is itself a pet-name for Nefertari, according to Aldred.
By Amenhotep III, Tiye had at least six children. She had two sons (Tuthmose V and Amenhotep IV, the second of whom went on to become pharaoh), and four daughters (Sitamun, Isis, Henut-taneb, and Beketaten).
Amenhotep III lavished a good deal of attention on his wife. In his monument-building craze, he devoted a number of shrines to Tiye, built a palace for her, and even went so far as to build a gigantic artificial lake for her (Redford, 1984). We know from her son's correspondance with Tushratta, the king of Mitanni, that Tiye wielded a good deal of political influence, as is often the case for women in matrilineal societies (in which the line of descent goes through the women rather than the men). Tushratta advised the new Pharaoh Amenhotep IV:
Teye, your mother, knows all the words that I spoke with your father. No one else knows them. You
must ask Teye, your mother, about them so she can tell you. . . . And may my brother listen to nothing
from anyone else. (Amarna Tablet 28, Trans. by Alder, in Moran, 1992).

From this we can gather that Tiye was not only Amenhotep III's trusted adviser and confidant, but that she also played an active part in politics abroad.


Life During the Reign of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten:
Tiye continued to be a major political influence during the reign of her second son, Amenhotep IV, again made clear by the letters exchanged with king Tushratta of Mitanni. Tushratta sent letters to Tiye herself to ask her help in influencing her son (AT 26, Trans. by Alder, in Moran, 1992). Tiye wrote back, telling him to "Promote your interests with Napkhururiya [Amenhotep IV], watch him, and do not cease from sending pleasant delegations" (Redford, 1984).
When Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaten and moved the capital city to Akhetaten, Tiye went with him, although she may not have taken up residence there right away (Redford, 1984; Aldred, 1987). A few small shrines were found at Akhetaten with stelae depicting Tiye and Amenhotep III, suggesting to some that the older royal couple did come to live at Akhetaten. It is known that Tiye paid a visit to Akhetaten around year 12 of Akhenaten's reign (Aldred, 1987), perhaps in order to view the festivities at the great durbar that took place in that year. Akhenaten commissioned a large, gilt shrine for his mother at around that time. Tiye vanished from the scene around the time of the death of Akhenaten's second daughter, Meketaten, perhaps having fallen victim to the plague that was circulating in Egypt at that time (Redford, 1984).
Works Cited:

Aldred, Cyril (1988). Akhenaten: King of Egypt. New York: Thames and Hudson Inc.
Moran, William L. (1992). The Amarna Letters. Maryland: Johns Hopkins University Press
Redford, Donald B. (1984). Akhenaten: The Heretic King. New Jersey: Princeton University Press


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:22 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
.
Tiye's mother, Thuya, was Superintendent of the Harem of Min of Akhmim and of Amun of Thebes during the reign of Thutmose IV, and was probably a descendant of Ahmose Nefertari, the first queen of the 18th dynasty. In the 18th dynasty, the royal bloodline passed through the female royalty, and it took marriage to a descendent of Ahmose Nefertari to legitimize a pharaoh's kingship. Therefore, Tiye would have been the Heiress Princess, next in line for the queenship (Aldred, 1987).

Aldred, Cyril (1988). Akhenaten: King of Egypt. New York: Thames and Hudson Inc.



"The 'Heiress' theory,

For over a century scholars have been reiterating the belief that the right to the throne of ancient Egypt was transmitted through the female line of the royal family in direct descent from one 'heiress'. to the next. Thus, any king, whether or not he was the son of predecessor, had to legitimise his claim to the throne by marriage with the 'heiress', who would be the daughter of the previous king and his 'heiress' queen. This meant that in most cases a king had to marry his sister or half-sister. Although the right to the throne, according to this hypothesis, descended through the female line, the office of kingship was not exercised by the 'heiress' but by the man she married.

If this theory were correct, each king would have had to marry a woman of royal birth, and it should be possible to trace a line of royal women in direct descent from one another. A study of the situation in the Eighteenth Dynasty, the period in connection with which this theory is most often cited, shows that such a line of descent simiply did not exist. Women of royal birth can be identified by the use of the title 'king's daughter', since there is no evidence in the Eighteenth Dynasty of women who are known to have had non-royal parents being given this title. This rules out the possibility that the title was sometimes awarded to enhance the status of non-royal women. Among the queens of the Eighteenth Dynasty, some bare the title 'king's daughter' while others do not. Although filiation is rarely given for queens, in cases where we find queens filiated to non-royal parents, those queens are not attested with the title 'king's daughter'. Thus we can undoubtedly distinguish between queens of royal and non royal birth, and it becomes clear that there was no line of 'heiresses' in unbroken descent. By way of refutation, it is enough to point out that the prinicipal wives of Thutmose III, Amenhotep II, and Amenhotep III were all of non-royal origins.

There is no doubt, however, that some kings did marry their sisters or half-sisters and had children by them, and the 'heiress' theory was developed partly in an attempt to explain a form of marriage which scholars regarded as incestuous. In fact, there is nothing within Egyptian texts to suggest that there was such a thing as an 'heiress'."

According to my sources the principal wife of Tuthmoses I wasn't of royal blood either.

There is no such thing as a 'heiress', Tiy was not one, Nefertiti wasn't one, Ankhesenamun wasn't one and Ay didn't need to marry her to achieve the throne! Nor did Horemheb have to marry Ankhesenamun, or Ay's daughter.

Source cited Robins, Gay, (1993), Harvard University Press, pages 26-27.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:20 pm 
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Originally posted by Osiris II

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Tiye would have been the Heiress Princess, next in line for the queenship (Aldred, 1987).


But what about Amenhotep's sister Sitamun. She had a better claim as heiress than Tiy.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:43 pm 
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Kiya wrote:
Originally posted by Osiris II

Quote:
Tiye would have been the Heiress Princess, next in line for the queenship (Aldred, 1987).


But what about Amenhotep's sister Sitamun. She had a better claim as heiress than Tiy.


You're right Kiya, if there were such a position.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:51 am 
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Originally posted by Sekhmet

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You're right Kiya, if there were such a position.


I have to say i've never been a huge fan of the heiress theory although I don't disregard it out of hand. It's one of many plausible theories as to why there was so much inbreeding. I tend to lean more towards the view that royal families saw sibling marriages as their rightful way of imitating the gods being that they were seen as at least semi devine themselves and many of the unions between gods and godesses were sibling unions; Shu & Tefnut, Geb & Nut etc.......


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:21 pm 
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What do you think was the reason for the marriage. I draw out the theory of true love, as they both so young at the time. Tiy wasn't from a particularly powerful family, or a good alliance builder as Mutemwiya had been. What caused the marriage to come about?
Antohter question. Why did Akhenaten and Nefertiti marry? Was it love, politics or alliances? If she was the daughter of Ay (as I believe) a dynastic merge was uneccesary as they were cousins and shared many common ancestors.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:46 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
What do you think was the reason for the marriage. I draw out the theory of true love, as they both so young at the time. Tiy wasn't from a particularly powerful family, or a good alliance builder as Mutemwiya had been. What caused the marriage to come about?
Antohter question. Why did Akhenaten and Nefertiti marry? Was it love, politics or alliances? If she was the daughter of Ay (as I believe) a dynastic merge was uneccesary as they were cousins and shared many common ancestors.


Hi Si-Amun With regards to Amenhotep III, and Tiy i don't believe love can be dismissed just because they were in their very early teens. Never heard of childhood sweethearts? Tiy, from the start of their marriage held an awful powerful position with her husband, and it only grew. Ramesses II we know had a harem at an early age from which Nefertari rosed to prominence. i don't think anyone can honestly say he didn't love her greatly. The same could have been for Tiy, and Amenhotep III as well as for Akhenaten and Nefertiti.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:27 am 
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Originally posted by Sekhmet

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Hi Si-Amun With regards to Amenhotep III, and Tiy i don't believe love can be dismissed just because they were in their very early teens. Never heard of childhood sweethearts? Tiy, from the start of their marriage held an awful powerful position with her husband, and it only grew. Ramesses II we know had a harem at an early age from which Nefertari rosed to prominence. i don't think anyone can honestly say he didn't love her greatly. The same could have been for Tiy, and Amenhotep III as well as for Akhenaten and Nefertiti.


The romantic in me likes to believe they were in love. Yuya and thuya were important palace officials and Tiy could obviously have been around the young king a lot. Maybe they were thrown together by their ambitious parents in the hope that something would happen and maybe they found their own way. I believe Amenhotep's sister Sitamun was quite young when her brother came to the throne. With mortality a risk maybe they wanted to make sure their was an heir to succeed and Tiy was available, of marriagable age and of a good family, who knows??? What is clear is that Tiy was greatly revered by her husband.

As for Nefertiti and Akhenaten, this could be the same again. They may have spent a significant amount of their childhood together with the families being so close. Maybe they found their own way but maybe his mother, 'Tiy', and her father, 'Ay?', through them together. Maybe Tiy was very fond of her niece and wanted to give the position of power, Great Royal Wife, to someone within her family. Maybe Maybe Maybe????

I don't think the family connections between them can be ignored and not be said to have been a factor at least.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:34 am 
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Kiya wrote:
I don't think the family connections between them can be ignored and not be said to have been a factor at least.


i do agree with you Kiya. However in a day and age when DNA can and does show family relationships but isn't done on Egyptian mummies for whatever reason. i am not comfortable in referring to supposed family relationships just because experts tell me that this was the relation. It isn't like the experts have gotten a great deal right in the first place.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:50 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
What do you think was the reason for the marriage. I draw out the theory of true love, as they both so young at the time.

Age doesnt matter in love! :D Now the romantic in me is coming out lol


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