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What do you believe happened to Ankhsenamon?
Poll ended at Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:48 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:53 pm 
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I do not believe that Akhenaten and Ankhesenamun sister died of a plague , because as you said , I mean they all died and not Tutankhamun or Ankhesenamun, seems she would have died if her whole family did.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:55 pm 
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Sekhmet, how do you believe thay all died. You must have a gut feeling if you have no evidence. Do you believe in foul play? Surely the deaths of so many in such a short period is not usual, even for ancient times.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:59 pm 
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Well we know Ahenaten died. And Meketaten, and Meriaten. And the other sisters were never mentioned agian. I only guess that something happened to them and they did not make it to adulthood.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:35 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
As for being murdered by the Egyptians, here are the words of a son of the Hittite king.

In the Plague Prayers of the Hittite king Mursilli, one of Suppiluliuma's successors, it is
recorded that:

'When the Egyptians became frightened, they asked outright for one of his [Suppiluliuma's]
sons to [take over] the kingship. But when my father gave them one of his sons, they led
him there and they killed him. My father let his anger run away with him, he went to war
against Egypt and attacked Egypt. He smote the foot soldiers and the charioteers of the
country of Egypt. But when they brought back to the Hatti [Hittite] land, the prisoners
which they had taken, a plague broke out among the prisoners and these began to die.
When they moved the prisoners to the Hatti land, these prisoners carried the plague into
the Hatti land. From that day on people have been dying in the Hatti land.'


I never said Suppilulimus didn't believe that the Egyptians murdered his son. But an old warrior king such as he was, denied the dynastic achievement of uniting in peace Egypt and Hittite. Long coverting of Egyptian northern terroritories he wouldn't need much but the suggestion that the Egyptians murdered his son to believe it.

In The Amarna Age: Western Asia by Fredreick Giles page 322. We learn that Suppilulimus was in contact with the Egyptian king after his son's death. This king most likely Ay, was attempting to convince Suppilulimus that what he had been told was different from what the Egyptians believed regarding the death of his son. However he maintained his own belief that Egypt had murdered his son. This information is from a poorly preserved document found in Hittite.

Again just because Suppilulimus "thought so" don't make it anymore true than a modern expert claiming that the whole family of Akhenaten died off due to plague leaving only Ankhesenamun, Tutankhamun, Ay, and Horemheb alive. Of course, one can believe what you read hook, line and sinker. Or you can consider the facts as known and think.

Thank you Osiris II for bringing up these interesting and important areas.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:57 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
Sekhmet, how do you believe thay all died. You must have a gut feeling if you have no evidence. Do you believe in foul play? Surely the deaths of so many in such a short period is not usual, even for ancient times.


Aww Si-Amun just because someone drops out of the limited historical documentation of one King to another doesn't mean they died. When Mutnodjmet stops being shown on Amarna reliefs as "sister" of Nefertiti no one believes she just upped and died.

Personally, i believe that they grew up, maybe even married and had non-royal children. Of, course i do believe in foul play in this day and age it needs to be considered. But in the space of less than 15 years Egyptianologists want us to believe that possibily some 9 (this number can be expanded too) people, three of whom are girl children, three of whom are divine Kings, and two Queens died by murder just stretches my ability to far! i think it stretches others ability as well, hence the new theory that they all died due to plague! When life in the Bronze Age was dangerous enough.

The plague was in the Middle East, but there are no Egpytian reports that indicate that it ever took hold in Egypt proper, let alone wiped out a Royal Family. Of course any thing is possible, some are probable, most however are unlikely. The most likely is that the younger daughters lived out their lives like other King's daughters happily in their own families. While the others died as so many did before the discovery of antibotics of infections.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:25 pm 
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From my recolection Tiy, Nefertiti and several daughters all disappear around Year 12 of the Amarna rule. I read that on a website. Surely it wouldn't be normal for several people to just disappear? Tiy would not have gone off, grown up and married, neither would Nefertiti. Why is there not even a fleeting mention of the daughters after a certain date, as there is with Ankhesenamun and Mutnodjmet? Many women survived the Armana period unscathed, for example Tey and Mutnodjmet became Queens. If your marriages aren't mentioned anywhere perhaps our plagues weren't either. I would have thought a royal marriage would have been proclaimed slightly more than a plague, which would have been common along the Nile. Deaths in or around Year 12:

-Tiy
-Nefertiti
-Kiya
-Meketaten
-Nefernefruaten Ta-Sherit
-Nefernefrure
-Setepenre

Now we are not talking about a space of fiteen years, but the space of fifteen months. Four daughters, two wives and a mother, seems an awful lot to just "disappear", especially those as influencial as Tiy and Nefertiti.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:44 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
From my recolection Tiy, Nefertiti and several daughters all disappear around Year 12 of the Amarna rule. I read that on a website. Surely it wouldn't be normal for several people to just disappear? Tiy would not have gone off, grown up and married, neither would Nefertiti. Why is there not even a fleeting mention of the daughters after a certain date, as there is with Ankhesenamun and Mutnodjmet? Many women survived the Armana period unscathed, for example Tey and Mutnodjmet became Queens. If your marriages aren't mentioned anywhere perhaps our plagues weren't either. I would have thought a royal marriage would have been proclaimed slightly more than a plague, which would have been common along the Nile.


Hey Si-Amun, your recollection is a bit off. Akhenaten holds his great Akhetaten celebration in year 12. Shortly after that it appears Tiy, Kiya, and Meketaten. By year 14, Nefertiti disappears. In year 17 Akhenaten dies, and somewhere between that time and the succession of Tutankhamun. Smenkhkara and then his wife die. While the younger princesses are gone by the end of Akhenaten,s rule. Okay now we have that straight let us look a bit deeper.

Queen Tiy, i would say simply died of old age. Possibility out of not being the ruling Queen a position she enjoyed. Of course 6 live births, the deaths of her eldest son and husband any another other children we know nothing of might have had a part to play.

Kiya is believed to have died. There is no evidence and the fact that the KV55 male is buried in some of her grave goods. If we are honest might indictate that she hadn't died. Simply lost favored and lived on in a very quiet life. Espeically after the death of Akhenaten.

Meketaten was dead. We have her burial scene in the tomb of Akhenaten. Here i have to ask a question. Why would he bury one daughter in his tomb even to the point of showing us such and not the other daughters? If they had all died between Meketaten's death and his own?

Nefertiti dies, i tend to believe it was of childbirth complications. Sometimes after many births the body just can't handle it. i don't see Akhenaten, and Nefertiti stopping their love affair after their youngest daughter is born.

Now as to why the younger children are no longer being shown after the death of Meketaten. Which is the first time we see just the remaining oldest 3 daughters. Umm even today we tend to shield the very young from death. With the sudden death of Meketaten, then the, perhaps anticipated, death of Tiy. The court turned from celebrating the new town to a more somber town. Then when Nefertiti died, things went on but without the beauty and glory of the early days and the art shows this, i think. Also Akhenaten had to cease celebrating his royal house, family, and town to settle Smenkhkara into the co-regency. Time just marched on the younger girls were to late into the history of this brief period.

There is also the theory that the children were to accent the fertility of Nefertiti, when she died that purpose decreased greatly. Again reducing the younger girls appearence on formal art.

Okay royal marriages :) Now who ranked in Ancient Egyptian society? Pharaoh and his Great Royal Wife. Outside of the unusal anouncement of Amenhotep III regarding his marriage to Tiy and then those of foreign princess. Can you provide me with any other anouncements of royal marriages? How about the anouncements, the todo of Amenhotep's III marriage to Sitamun? Or of Ankhesenamun with Tutankhamun, and that of Meritaten to Smenkhkara?

How about the fates of the following princess? Tiaa, Amenemipet, Tentamun, Petepihu, Henuttaneb, Isis, and Iny. Not to mention the 16 unnamed princess' appearing behind Queen Tiy in the tomb of Kheruef a royal steward. We do know these girls were the daughters of Kings, their father's had their pictures and names recorded in some cases. But when the Kingship passed from one king to the other and the girls were no longer named or recorded. Is this because they all died? No the old King was dead, the new King counted not his sisters! It is the same with the younger daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. When Smenkhkara came to the throne his sisters in law ceased to be important enough to have their pictures, names recorded in conjuction with him.

i hope this is a help to you Si-Amun.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:59 pm 
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-Meketaten dies we have pictures of her death.
-Nefernefruaten Ta-Sherit lives at least until after her sister Meketaten dies. She is shown on the mourning relief.
-Nefernefrure unknown no evidence that she died before her father. At least he didn't bury her in his tomb as he did Mekeaten. Nor is she shown in the mourning relief for Meketaten. According to the theory that when you die you disappear from reliefs this would indicate she died before Meketaten or right after her death.
-Setepenre same as Nefernefrure.

Tutankhamun ruled into his 10th year. Ay was accused of killing the Hittite prince so he could ascend the throne.

So the 15 year span i am talking about includes the very last years of Akhenaten and all of Tutankhamun's.

The theory that plague was introduced into Egypt during the 12 year celebration at Akhetaten is understandable. But that would mean that in Egypt itself that it killed most of the Royal family over 5 years. Without any mention in the records of Egypt. Then returned to the Near East to wait at least another 11 years to kill Suppilulimus and his heir. Right!

Rumors of murder in the Amarna House begin with the death of Akhenaten, to Smenkhkara, Meritaten, then wait 10 years to murder Tutankhamun to the following year when Zennanza dies on his way to Egypt. They end with the disappearence of Ankhesenamun. Okay maybe not 15 years but pretty darn near it,


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:25 pm 
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:? Meritaten also in a way vanishes. I mean what happened there?
So , She was married to Smenkhkara and then he died, where did Meritaten go? And the throne was passed to Tutankhamun.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:40 pm 
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Sekhmet, you've stated that Smenkhkara and his wife both die. I found this posted, from the site:

www.lind.opr.zx/history/egyptiansite/smenkhkara.htm

I thought I had heard that Ankhsenamon was Smenkhkara's widow. What's your comments?

Married to Meritaton - although his name was also linked to Ankhespaaton


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:47 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
Sekhmet, you've stated that Smenkhkara and his wife both die. I found this posted, from the site:

www.lind.opr.zx/history/egyptiansite/smenkhkara.htm

I thought I had heard that Ankhsenamon was Smenkhkara's widow. What's your comments?

Married to Meritaton - although his name was also linked to Ankhespaaton


Osiris II, you're link didn't work. Yes, i know "experts" claim she married both her father, and Smenkhkara, then Ay and maybe even Horemheb. ( i have read that myself before about Horemheb.) If we believe the "experts" Ankhesenamun married eveyone alive during her lifetime.

i have stated i believe sh married Tutankhamun, and then Ramesses I.
As for her reputed marriages to her father, Smenkhkara, and Ay, i don't buy them. Women were not chattle in the 18th dynasty and to be passed on to succeeding successors tastes to much like chattle to me.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:37 pm 
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The ancient Egyptian woman had a great deal of civil rights--except for the Royal Women! The were often used as bargaining tools--you can marry this princess, but you have to be on Egypt's "side". Isn't this being chattle?
The average Egyptian woman could own property, run a business, leave her estate to whomever she would please, marry when she wanted and not become an outcast by not marrying. Not so with the Royal Women. They could own property--but it had to be a gift from Pharaoh, and would revert to him at her death. Businesses were out of question for her. Any estate became Pharaoh's if he wanted it, and could only be left to her heirs if he said so. And marriage? Completely at the discretion of Pharaoh.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:37 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
The ancient Egyptian woman had a great deal of civil rights--except for the Royal Women! The were often used as bargaining tools--you can marry this princess, but you have to be on Egypt's "side". Isn't this being chattle?
The average Egyptian woman could own property, run a business, leave her estate to whomever she would please, marry when she wanted and not become an outcast by not marrying. Not so with the Royal Women. They could own property--but it had to be a gift from Pharaoh, and would revert to him at her death. Businesses were out of question for her. Any estate became Pharaoh's if he wanted it, and could only be left to her heirs if he said so. And marriage? Completely at the discretion of Pharaoh.


Could you please supply your sources for this information? Thank you.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:32 pm 
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Most of the information comes from a paper that was published by J. Jackson in Fathom, an on-line library sponsered by the University of Chicago. The full text can be read at:
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777190170/
Parts are taken from the translations of various ancient Egyptian text.
Also used were:
Tyldesley, Joyce. 1995. Daughters of Isis: Women of Ancient Egypt. Harmondsworth: Penguin.
Watterson, Barbara. 1991. Women in Ancient Egypt. Stroud: Alan Sutton


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:51 pm 
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Very interesting. The same situation was laso quite similar in England until the last century. Poorer women had a lot more freedom than their richer counterparts, being able to work and live quite free lives compared to the harsh constraints of middle class and upper class society.


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