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What do you believe happened to Ankhsenamon?
Poll ended at Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:48 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:46 pm 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Okay........ :D Yes that would make sense. So maybe the rings did showed approval from the Queen. But has a ring like that ever been shown or found that has shown co-regencey?


Umm well why don't you tell me where another Queen had to pick a successor to her childless husband? Seal rings exist for many co-regencies i would suspect but i am not aware of them. As for co-regencey combined names consider Hapshepsut and Tuthmoses III.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:35 am 
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But that was her son? I mean how did Aye become Phoroah if he did not marry someone royal like Ankhesenamun. And if she had married after Tut's death not to Aye would her new husband not have taken the throne over Aye.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:41 pm 
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Aye was possibly the grandfather of Ankhesenamun through Nefertiti, thus holding some claim to the throne in a turbulent era. He was also a VERY powerful man in Egypt at the time and would have been able to control the succession. On the death of Ay, why did Horemheb come to the throne? That is a more interesting question. Horemheb was not the ancestor of any Royal person, much less a Queen. He had only married the possible half sister of a Queen who was branded a hertic and maniac. Mutnodjmet held no powerful office, only Horemheb controlled the military might of Egypt. I do have a question for Sekhmet though. Why did Horemheb ascend if Ankhesenamun had a husband and son? She was royal and had a descendant. Why did Horemheb acend at all, it doesn't make sense to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:36 pm 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
But that was her son? I mean how did Aye become Phoroah if he did not marry someone royal like Ankhesenamun. And if she had married after Tut's death not to Aye would her new husband not have taken the throne over Aye.


Hi Ankhesenamun3 :) Thanks for the questions!

Hatshepsut was Tuthmoses III, half aunt. She married her half-brother, who fathered Tuthmoses III.

Tuthmoses I, Ankhesenamun3 wasn't a born to the throne, royal prince. He was Pharaoh's Ahmoses chosen choice for successor and a very capable general of Pharaoh.

In a perfect world, yes her husband would have become Pharaoh. But, Egypt was not at a perfect state at the time Ay succeeded to the throne. Egypt was already fighting aganist Hittite advancement in Egypt's northern Syrian territories. At about the same time as Tutankhamun's death, Egypt lost an important battle against the Hittites. Its ally Mitanni was already a new puppet state of Hittite. Egypt had no legitimate heir. The priest of Amun were regaining their power in Egypt. And an Hittite Prince on the way to marry Egypt's Queen was found dead. According to various Restoration Stela's from the time. Egypt itself, was not in a very good position, with corruption infecting the legal courts.

If Ramesses I was the man who married Ankhesenamun, what experience did he have to rule a healthy nation, let alone Egypt in its present state?
Ay's days as a warrior due to his age were mostly over. Horemheb, Tutankhamun's aknowledged successor, Egpyt's prime military leader, was needed more in the field than on the throne. Ramesses I, was a young man, likely a warrior certainly not trained or even experienced in the affairs of state, or court. Whereas, Ay certainly was, and Horemheb certainly had more such experience than Ramesses I. Marriage was no assurence that he and Ankhesenamun would have children that would live, let alone male children that would live.

Her children would have had the right to the throne, but did Egypt need or want an even more inmature, Pharaoh than Tutankhamun had been on his succession? Did Egypt need an inexperienced non-royal man on the throne while he didn't even have an adult son to succeed him?

No. It needed a man well trained in statehood, in the traditions of Pharaoh and one knowledgable in foreign affairs. Here on the board we talk of Maat and how important it was to Ancient Egypt. Maat since the time of Amenhotep III was out of balance, Ay, Horemheb, Ankhesenamun, and Ramesses I would have known this far better than we do today. The death of Tutankhamun without heir must have meant to them something was still not right in the attempt to right Maat. Something even more drastic was perhaphs needed. i sometimes try to understand what they must have felt as they saw the results of inbalanced Maat. Talk about waking to a nightmare Ankhesenamun3, and please try to understand what these ancient people must have felt.

Looking to their religion they must have come upon the Isis/Horus myth of Isis in fear for her son went into hiding. Until he was able to face the threats, the murder of his father, had brought against his own safety. Sure, at this time it was most likely that Seti hadn't been born. So Ankhesenamun couldn't have been in fear for her son's life at this time. But she was hopeful of having more children, living children, and Egypt by this time, in the way of royals, had become her child. And Egypt was threatened.

Marriage to Ramesses I would have disguised her, to the agents of chaos that was trying to destroy Egypt. A Queen marrying a commoner and warrior to boot! In the meantime, Ramesses I would begin the long process of learning to rule as Pharaoh, protect his wife, and hopefully raise sons that could and would become Pharaoh. While men that had the experience, and the warrior background able to defeat both Egypt's real enemies (Hittite) and hopefully the spiritual agents of chaos, would rule. With the full co-operation of the reigning, and anointed Queen. That the Ramesses' family were originally from the Delta, the mythical place of safety for Isis and Horus. Only helped to assure Ankhesenamun, Ramesses I, Ay, and Horemheb that their plan stood a chance of success.

And i think that after a while as just the simple wife of a growing important court offical, and mother of healthy children. She must have been very happy. Because we know she when she was born she wasn't expected to become Queen.

I really do appreciate your questions Ankhesenamun3, thanks.


Last edited by Sekhmet on Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:51 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
Aye was possibly the grandfather of Ankhesenamun through Nefertiti, thus holding some claim to the throne in a turbulent era. He was also a VERY powerful man in Egypt at the time and would have been able to control the succession. On the death of Ay, why did Horemheb come to the throne? That is a more interesting question. Horemheb was not the ancestor of any Royal person, much less a Queen. He had only married the possible half sister of a Queen who was branded a hertic and maniac. Mutnodjmet held no powerful office, only Horemheb controlled the military might of Egypt. I do have a question for Sekhmet though. Why did Horemheb ascend if Ankhesenamun had a husband and son? She was royal and had a descendant. Why did Horemheb acend at all, it doesn't make sense to me.


Hi Si-Amun :) You are quiet right about Ay. As for Horemheb not having any royal ancestors according to Dr. Giles, he does claim Tuthmoses III as his ancestor. i found that interesting because most scholars use the daughter of Ay as his means of succession. Not that he claimed Tuthmoses III as an ancestor, nor was chosen by Tutankhamun as his successor.

Now to your questions. :) It does make sense if you read the post to Ankhesenamun3 above. Along with considering that Horemheb succeeded Ay after a mear four years. Hardly time for Ramesses I to do much other than to start his family, and to begin to get a grasp of just how hard it was to be a "royal". If one isn't born to it.

Then there is the added complication of maintaining a barely restored Maat that hopefully Ay succeeded in. Historically there isn't much proof that Egypt got much better under his four years as Pharaoh. Horemheb might have allowed Ankhesenamun, her husband, and infant to toddling son to regain her throne. But that would have allowed a still mostly inexperienced man to become Pharaoh, and a child heir. While denying Ankhesenamun, her nice quiet life, free from court structure. Put the burderns of courtlife upon her very young children and open them back up to the threats of chaos upon them in a very blantent and open way. i wouldn't have allowed that to happen to me, or my family if i had been her. Not if there was an Horemheb working around, so capable too.

Horemheb, had also been chosen by Tutankhamun to be his heir. Wouldn't the attempt to restore Maat include fulfilling his will? i believe so, one doesn't easily negate the wishes of an anointed Pharaoh even when dead.

Ankhesenamun, Ramesses I and their children were diffinetly younger than Horemheb. They had time to grow older as Horemheb fulfilled Tutankhamun's will for him and continued to make Egypt safe for the real Horus child growing at his mother's side.

The myth that i base a great deal of my theory on returns Horus to his rightful place as a young man capable of doing the job that is required. A toddler/infant wouldn't have allowed that or meet the myth's condition. The more time the adults allowed Seti. To grow disguised as a mear mortal, not the divine and future Pharaoh, would allow him greater ability to restore Egypt to its glory. When he did finally throw off the disquise.

Horemheb did stablize Egypt, as Ramesses I continued to rise ever higher in the government and court of Egypt. By the time these two men died Egypt was ready to resume its place in the international world. And Seti came out fighting just as Horus did in the myth. He retook control of southern Palestine, and settled peace treaties with Hittite. He set upon a great rebuilding program in Egypt itself and rasied up his young son to become one of Egypt's greatest Pharaohs.

Even to this day i understand that it is Seti that is the Eygptians favorite Pharaoh. This to me is a "proof" that Seti was no mear son of lucky common parents but a child raised from his first breaths as the future Horus that would disspell the chaos that had fallen upon Egypt. Just as the real Horus had in the beginning.

Of course i may be totally off. But when you find history fitting so closely with myth you have to stop and consider.

i hope these posts are a help to you, and Ankhesenamun3 :) And i do appreciate your questions as well. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:59 pm 
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:D Thank You Sekhmet , for answering my questions!!

You should really write a book of your views , because they are wonderful. Sorry about the mix up with Tuthmoses III .As for Ankhesenamun she did become greater than I bet she ever imaged possible. I wonder why if the Hitties had always been enemies of Egypt would Ankhesenamun write for a husband from them , and not just that they really did send one. And for Ankhesenamun having children I am sure that some may have questioned her ablilty to have them do to the fact they she had already most likely had 2 children who had died prematurly. And Horemheb would have made a good pharoah for Egpyt during a time of war. :) Again you have brought many good questions for me to wonder about. And your theory on what happened to Ankhesenamun sounds to me just as likely as that she was murdered. Thanks Again Sekhmet!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:36 am 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
:D Thank You Sekhmet , for answering my questions!!

You should really write a book of your views , because they are wonderful. Sorry about the mix up with Tuthmoses III .As for Ankhesenamun she did become greater than I bet she ever imaged possible. I wonder why if the Hitties had always been enemies of Egypt would Ankhesenamun write for a husband from them , and not just that they really did send one. And for Ankhesenamun having children I am sure that some may have questioned her ablilty to have them do to the fact they she had already most likely had 2 children who had died prematurly. And Horemheb would have made a good pharoah for Egpyt during a time of war. :) Again you have brought many good questions for me to wonder about. And your theory on what happened to Ankhesenamun sounds to me just as likely as that she was murdered. Thanks Again Sekhmet!!


You're welcome Ankhesenamun3, i like questions. i like asking questions even better than answering if the truth be known. Why? Because i am usually the one that has to do the research to find the answers to the questions i ask. i don't tend to ask easy questions :) LOL
i am working on several books, one historical the others historical fiction based upon my Ankhesenamun/Ramesses I theory and yet another one about Merneith, the 1st Dynasty Queen Regent and first historical woman to rule a nation. Thanks for the encouragement!

Okay now to your questions about the Hittite's. First off they weren't always enemies. It was mostly a powerless vacum during the great period of expansion under Tuthmoses I, and III. Hittite wasn't able to rise above these internal problems until just years prior to Akhenaten's reign. It was only during his reign that Hittite returned to a real power house under the rule of the great and i mean great Suppilulumas I. He actually rates with Tuthmoses I and III, Ramesses II, Alexander the Great, and Hannibal as great military leaders. Anyway, he sought friendship ties with Akhenaten and these were favorably recieved. However with the succession of the youth, Tutankhamun and other developments in the area of north Syria that friendship rapidly died off. Until there was open warfare, not great warfare that wouldn't come until Prince Zennanza died on his way to marry Egypt's Queen. Just border type stuff and mostly with old allies of Egypt, rather than Egypt itself. (Not to say there was no Egyptian forces included in the border fighting.)

Now Dr. Donald Redford, the beast he is LOL actually calls Ankhesenamun a traitor based upon her letter to Suppilulumas I for a son. While midly praising her great-grandfather Tuthmoses IV for marrying a Mitanni princess to secure peace! This is what her marriage offer to Suppilulumas was partly about, peace. By marrying a Hittite Prince, she was going to provide Egypt with not just a royal prince to father her children. But would also put an end to the border problems and solve it all by making a peace with Hittite in the marriage deal on top. We can give the credit for this thinking to her great-grandfather, who is considered the first man in recorded histoy to marry for peace. i think this aspect of her offer to Suppilulumas is often overlooked by Egyptianologists, in their amazement that an Egyptian Queen would be so full of gumption to do such a thing! But acutally it was an extermely intelligent step and would have solved many problems for the whole area if it had taken place.

Now about her ability to have children. She could have children, the remains of 2 of them are in their father's tomb. That they didn't live can't be blamed on her. Infant and child morality was horrific in her day. She must have been considered of extremely fertile stock. Her mother had at least 6 live births, her father's mother Queen Tiy had the same. With Maat so unbalance and the death of Tutankhamun. The fact she had no living children most likely would have been blamed on the lack of Maat, and on Tutankhamun if further blame was needed.

i am glad to hear that your thinking, i love thinking people! It shows they are't robots, but human. :wink: And i am grateful that you see some possibilitly for my theory. i like it much better than the Egpytianologists stock answer, she died, she was murdered. :roll:

i do agree with you i do believe Ankhesenamun became much greater than she ever dreamed of :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:40 am 
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Hey Sekhmet,

I believe that Ankhesenamun may not have been able to have children with Tutankhamun , because they were related. At the time I am sure that the Egyptians did not know of the Effects on a child when its parents are related. Maybe brother and sister maybe just step brohter and sister , but both are still to closely related. They thought it was okay as I am sure you already know about there gods and goddess doing the same. Isis and Osris and many other gods. So I bet that Ankhesenamun would be more likely to have a healthy child , with Ramesses I. As for the Hitties being foes of the Egyptians , well for all of Ankhesenamun's childhood they were. I wonder why someone would want to kill the Hittie prince , if his coming would help Egypt. Maybe it was not an Egyptian who killed him maybe it was one of his own, but that still sounds strange?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:25 pm 
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Hey Ankhesenamun3

i think you might be onto something about the genetics issue Ankhesenamun3.

Here we have murder again! While Suppiluliumas I does accuse Egypt's Ay of murdering his son. Ay denies it. Myself, i prefer to look closer to where the Prince dies in Syria for a murderer if that was indeed the cause of death. But back in that time, a person could die of a tooth infection spreading to the brain and everyone would think that person had been poisoned. Anyway, assuming he had been murdered, a localized Syrian ruler would have been the last to want a peace between Egypt, and Hittite. Such a allience would deprive any number of the small city states of Syria of hopes of independence and further glory by overthrowing another city.

Another possibility is that Zennanza was murdered, (if he really was) again by one of the small city state rulers in revenge against Suppiluliumas I. He had been a source of problems for many of those cities for years.

Then there is the last possibility, he died of the plague that was just beginning to spread throughtout the Syrian/Palestine area. In fact, both his father and oldest brother die from this plague a very few years later.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:12 pm 
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I guess it is possible that he did die of something other than murder , but I mean what are the chances that he died on the way there. Would he make a voyage in Bad health? I mean maybe he did die of the plague , but if he did it sure was bad timing.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:28 am 
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You paint a very good scenerio, Sekhmet, but I'm afraid I remain uncovienced.
The big question, in my mind, is if Ankhsenamen married Rameses I and lived happily ever after, how did Aye ligitimize his claim to the throne? He HAD to marry Ankhsenamen--she was the only way for him to rule. He carried no, or very little, royal blood that would give him a right to rule.
I feel it's possible that Ankhsenamen changed her name, but why? And her absolute disappearence from all written records is highly irregular, suggesting death.
As for the Hittite princes' death--I believe he was murdered. By a Syrian prince? Possible--he did die in Lebanon and his father increased raids into Lebanon and Syria after his death, but taking no action against Egypt. But isn't it possible that he was murdered at Aye's orders, or by Horemheb who was the leader of Egyptian military forces at the time, and blame put on the Syrians? As far as him dying of the plague, it is very doubtful. A death by a disease takes time, and from what we know of his death, it was very fast--showing a violent end. I don't think the plague was pushing through the Middle East until 10 years later.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:32 am 
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Why thanks Osiris II!

Would you please show me the Ancient Egyptian text that says Ay, had to marry Ankhesenamun. i don't mean some Egyptianologist text proclaiming that rule, but an Ancient Egyptian Text. Fact is, we don't know exactly what the mechanics of succession was. Once we believed in the heiress prinicess theory, but today that belief is... on its way out the door. Except for the successions of Ay, and Horemheb. Please see Women in Ancient Egypt by Gay Robins pages 26, 27, 150-151. A co-regency with the reigning widowed Queen would have given the very powerful Ay all the "rights" to the throne he needed. As Queen, her part in the co-regency would have been extremely small, as it should have been in Hatshepsut's day. Except Tuthmoses III was a very small child, and Ay was a very adult male. Again, to support your position, of "having to" i would appreciate those Ancient Egyptian sources.

i can understand your belief that a plague would be hard press to last 10 years in the Middle East. Except i read where King Mursilis II in the Plague Prayer Text, states the plague that killed his father Suppiluliumas I, and his oldest son lasted for at least 20 years in Hittite. A much cooler and hardier place than the Middle East.

Not all plagues take a great deal of time to kill. Because Mursilis II in his Plague Prayer Texts doesn't tell us the symptoms or lenght of illness of the plague. That was in Hittite for 20 years and brought into Hittite by Egyptians in Northern Syria, we can't say what kind of plague it was. Bubonic plague for example has an incubation peroid of 2 weeks, then you died quickly. i can see where a healing priest, treating the King's son symptoms of bubonic plague. Might claim it was poison and the final appearing syptoms the buboes, were the poisons being defeated and attempting to leave the body. Until the victim's death, brought on by over all weakness of fighting off the poison not of disease.

Of course Ay or even Horemheb might have paid someone to murder the young man. Then again, he may have died of a tooth infection that spread to the brain, another very rapid killer. Or even appendicitis, yet, another rapid killer. We don't know, can't know, and all thoughts are just spectulation. However, as long as we don't have substancial evidence, it is best to stick to reasonable, theories not murder this, murder that and they all died so, X could.... :wink: Claiming, using a mantle of "expert", that we do know.


Last edited by Sekhmet on Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:56 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
I feel it's possible that Ankhsenamen changed her name, but why? And her absolute disappearence from all written records is highly irregular, suggesting death.


Here again there are some reasonable answers to this question. Why would she change her name? How many Queens, marry one Pharaoh only to marry a man that becomes Pharaoh years later?

i see Ankhesenamun, happy married, raising her children coming closer to that day when Ramesses I becomes Pharaoh dealing with this. Perhaps Satre was his private name for her. For that matter perhaps it had always been her nickname. To return to her throne as Ankhesenamun would be to tie her now long married husband, and their son... to a dead Pharaoh, and time some 30 years earlier. Not wise, or a thing most women would want to do. Then after having faded into the background to "hide as Isis" with the above consideration. She allowed the name change to continue to fool the agents of chaos as to her, and her son's true parentage.

With the now long successful restoration of the old gods, for Ankhesenamun to have resumed her throne with her Atenists inspired, then changed to favor Amun name. Might have restirred memories better left alone.

Thanks for the questions Osiris II, i hope my answers help.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:16 pm 
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As for being murdered by the Egyptians, here are the words of a son of the Hittite king.

In the Plague Prayers of the Hittite king Mursilli, one of Suppiluliuma's successors, it is
recorded that:

'When the Egyptians became frightened, they asked outright for one of his [Suppiluliuma's]
sons to [take over] the kingship. But when my father gave them one of his sons, they led
him there and they killed him. My father let his anger run away with him, he went to war
against Egypt and attacked Egypt. He smote the foot soldiers and the charioteers of the
country of Egypt. But when they brought back to the Hatti [Hittite] land, the prisoners
which they had taken, a plague broke out among the prisoners and these began to die.
When they moved the prisoners to the Hatti land, these prisoners carried the plague into
the Hatti land. From that day on people have been dying in the Hatti land.'


'It is very possible that the sudden deaths of several members of the royal family could be
linked to the plague.'


The text implies that a great plague was ravaging the Middle East at the time. The same
plague is mentioned in the Amarna Letters EA 11, EA 35, EA 96 and EA 932. Given the
scale of this epidemic, it is very possible that the sudden deaths of several members of the
royal family could be linked to the plague. The plague may, furthermore, have been felt to
be a punishment from the old, neglected, gods, and may have precipitated the end of the
cult of the Aten. Indeed, the return to traditional religious practices and the desertion of
the palace at Amarna can be clearly dated to the reign of Ankh(et)kheperure
Neferneferuaten, alias Merytaten, and not to that of Tutankhamun, as has generally been
assumed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/eg ... a_07.shtml


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:37 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:

'It is very possible that the sudden deaths of several members of the royal family could be
linked to the plague.'


The text implies that a great plague was ravaging the Middle East at the time. The same
plague is mentioned in the Amarna Letters EA 11, EA 35, EA 96 and EA 932. Given the
scale of this epidemic, it is very possible that the sudden deaths of several members of the
royal family could be linked to the plague. The plague may, furthermore, have been felt to
be a punishment from the old, neglected, gods, and may have precipitated the end of the
cult of the Aten. Indeed, the return to traditional religious practices and the desertion of
the palace at Amarna can be clearly dated to the reign of Ankh(et)kheperure
Neferneferuaten, alias Merytaten, and not to that of Tutankhamun, as has generally been
assumed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/eg ... a_07.shtml


Oh thank you Osiris II for bringing this up... the possible deaths of Akhenaten and the many other royal Egyptians of his time, due to plague. When i first read it i fell to the floor laughing... because here we go again! More theories based upon NOTHING but speculation! It is one thing for Suppilulimus and his son to have died due to plague as they did. They were both warriors, they contracted the disease while interrogating prisoners of war. Understandable really.

But in Amarna now we are to believe that most of the royal family dies off because of plague. Leaving only young Tutankhamun, and Ankhesenamun alive along with Ay, a military man turned courtier and Horemheb a military man live on. Now nice and tidy. Those espousing this new "plague" theory can't provide the burials a plague in Amarna would have produce... they claim well the bodies were removed to family plots elsewhere. Nice! Nor do they give any how, why, or when Akhenaten, Nefertiti, Kiya, Meritaten, Smenkhkara and the younger children of Nefertiti would have come in contact with this supposed plague! When some of these questions are answered i will be more than happy to reconsider, until then no way!


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