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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:40 am 
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I am sure that I read once that the Stela of Merenptah has the determinative for Israel as showing it to be a wandering tribe. I thought that was the basis of beliefs that it was Rammesses II. The Biblle (I think) also mentions the city of Pi-Ramsses, which until the mid New Kingdom was still Avaris. These are just things that I vaguely remember so please don't hold me on them too much but if there was an exodus I thought that Ramsses II or Merenptah was the pharaoh mentioned.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:33 am 
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Hi again Si-amun,

You are correct in all your remembering. For the Merneptah Stela, clarification let me quote from the Revised Edition, Handbook of Biblical Chronology by Jack Finegan pg 242. "Israel is marked with the determinative for a people without a city-state, thus they were a known people in Canaan but were not yet organized in cities, were perhaps yet only tribes occupying the highlands."
Here we have two problems the first being the ignoring of the very first verse in the stanza... not a single expert i am aware of ever discusses this ... This verse states "The princes are prostrate, saying: Mercy!" When did Israel have Princes, certainly not during its tribal state. It is only after its organization as a Kingdom that Israel had princes. Experts don't discuss this aspect of the Stela because it rises this question of when did Israel have princes. And during the time of Merneptah experts do not traditionally date an Israelite kingdom in existance.

The second problem is the concentration on the determinative used to refer to the Israelites. It is as if these experts expect Israelites to have been city dwellers. It isn't until after David and Solomon that they even leave the hills for the cities. Even then they are the people of Judah or Israel not of Jerusalem, Hebron, Sameria etc.

Not since Champollion misidentified Shoshenq I as Shishak, in about 1826 has any Biblical scholar seriously considered Ramesses II as having anything to do with the Exodus. This is because of their dependence on Shoshenq I and 2nd Kings 6:1 tends to point the 18th Dynasty as the time of the Exodus. Along with the Merneptah Stela which indictes that Israel is in Canaan by his time most scholars now accept that Ramesses II had nothing to do with the Exodus. However, that Shoshenq I never campaigned in Judah, nor sacked Jerusalem does not appear to bother most experts he is still most often considered to be Shishak who did campaign in Judah, and sacked Jerusalem. Nor is it apparent that they read their Bible because 2nd Kings 6:1 does not agree with the number of years listed in the Book of Judges it gives a total of 583 years of Jewish history after the conquest of Canaan, while 2nd Kings allows only 480 years between Exodus and Solomon's 4th year of reign. Another problem experts like to skip over.

As for Pi-Ramesses :) what isn't well known is that within 5km's of this area are the ancient funerary towns of the Pepian Kings of the 6th Dynasty. See The Cultural Atlas of the World Ancient Egypt by John Baines, and Jaromir Malek pg. 175.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:38 am 
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I need to find the Cultural atlas of the world! I cant find it anywhere


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:18 pm 
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I'm going to be the little outsider here and voice my opinion. I personally think that Ramasses II was Pharaoh SOMETIME during Moses' life. Whether or not he was the actual Pharaoh during the time of the Exodus is questionable.

It says in the Bible that it was during the time of "Pi-Ramasses'...which could be Pithom and Ramasses. *shrugs*

There was a Pharaoh after Ramasses that coul dhave been the Pharaoh of the Exodus. The guy ruled during troubled times and died very suddenly...it kind of fits really. Though it never did say in the bible that the Pharaoh died.

Okay, I'm kind of wondering if I even made any sense right there. *blushes* HOrrible for my first post. I'm very sorry ^^

Sphynx


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:14 pm 
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Ramses ruled for 67 years. When he died the first twelve of his sons had already died and the throne passed to the thirteenth. Merenptah was an old man virtually when he ascended. In England the Queen has ruled for 52 years and her son is 56. If we pretend that she is Ramses that would put Prince Charles at 71 - quite an age at the time of succession. Is it any wonder that Merenptah did not rule for too long? As for troubled times I was not aware that the reign of Merenptah was so troubled. A huge tomb in Luxor pays testiment to a long and happy reign. I was always under the impression that Merenptah had a good and strong reign, merely overshadowed by his father and grandfather. Forgive me if I am wrong though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:02 am 
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Forgive me,

I was misleading ^_^ It wasn't Ramases son I was speaking of, it was like his grandson or his great grandson. I think he was Seti II if I'm not mistaken (which I probbably am)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:00 am 
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Sphynx wrote:
I'm going to be the little outsider here and voice my opinion. I personally think that Ramasses II was Pharaoh SOMETIME during Moses' life. Whether or not he was the actual Pharaoh during the time of the Exodus is questionable.

It says in the Bible that it was during the time of "Pi-Ramasses'...which could be Pithom and Ramasses. *shrugs*

There was a Pharaoh after Ramasses that coul dhave been the Pharaoh of the Exodus. The guy ruled during troubled times and died very suddenly...it kind of fits really. Though it never did say in the bible that the Pharaoh died.

Okay, I'm kind of wondering if I even made any sense right there. *blushes* HOrrible for my first post. I'm very sorry ^^

Sphynx


Hi Sphynx! Welcome to KingTutOne! i think you made a great first post. There is nothing whatsoever wrong in voicing ones opinion. i do it all the time :)

The problem with Ramesses II or those after him dealing with the Exodus is the Merneptah Victory Stela which states clearly that the Prince of Israel, a non-city state people begged Merneptah for mercy. Meaning that by the time of Merneptah, the son and successor of Ramesses II the Israelites were in Israel.

As for what the Bible says about Pithom and Pi- Ramasses. Let us consider for a minute. If we accept that Moses wrote it, as i do. He had to live prior to the reign of Merneptah because of the Merneptah Victory Stela, and that Israel had to have had a Prince by that time. This isn't likely Israel didn't have a Prince for centuries after they left Egypt not within a generation. Unless the Egyptians confused a Judge with Prince which is possible but not likely because Judges records no Egyptian invasion during the Judges period.
By the 21st Dynasty Pi-Ramesses was sinking and the branch of the Nile that it was built upon was drying up, the Pharaohs of the 21st Dynasty did a resuce operation and transfered much of what had been at Pi-Ramesses to their new capital city Tanis not far away. By the time that the Israelites and Judeans were taken by the Assyrians first then Babylonians between the years of 850- 650 BCE. There was no Pi-Ramesses if it existed it was as a memory of a great city of Ramesses' Kings the last truely great native Egyptian Kings. It is strongly argued that during the Babylonian Exile the Bible was edited, or redacted is the correct term while others claim that it was wholly written at this time or not long before. Things like camels, chariots, were added to make it easier for folks to read and understand.

Okay now as i said i believe that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. i have no trouble accepting that it was redacted during the Babylonian exile. Just as i don't have problems with the Living Bible which was redacted in my own lifetime to make it easier for folks to understand in modern languages.

So, since i accept that Moses wrote the original 5 books, i have to find another way to explain Pi-Ramesses and Pithom mentioned in the Bible. i find it knowing that the funerary cities which could be considered as store cities of the 6th Dynasty Pharaohs were within 5kms of where Pi-Ramesses and Pithom came to be. There is no trouble when i consider that the redactors unable to find the cities or wishing perhaps to protect them from the new masters of both the Jews and Egpytians. By this time these 6th dynasty cities are almost 1500 years older than the redactors. The redactors would have known that the real cities named by Moses were within the same area of Egypt, and maybe even believed. That they were the rebuilt cities renamed cities of the enslaved children of Jacob. So they used instead of the ancient names of the cities they used the still remembered names of the great Pi-Ramesses and Pithom instead.

Again welcome and voice your opinion if it is yours :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:07 pm 
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Just side tracking a little here but I had to ask. What actual archeological evidence is there of the Hebrew Exodus? It is just that I myself am a little skeptical as to the scheme of events and have found little evidence to prove the bible viewpoint. I do not mean this to be offensive so please don't condemn me, as some members have done to others on other forums. I believe that anyone is entitled to hold their own beliefs and please don't challenge my non-christian beliefs as I wont challenge yours.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:36 pm 
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They found Chariot Wheels in the Dead Sea. They think it was from one of the chariots that was washed away when the sea was closed up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:41 pm 
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Hi Si-Amun :) You should get no threatening pro-christian stuff from me as i am no christian myself. What you will get from me is backedd by non other than archaeologial support for the truism of Biblical history. It depends really upon your, or the readers ability to shake off the accepted Christian Chronology. That limits Biblical history to a mear 6000 years that includes a total Earth history of a mear 6000 years. Once this feat is accomplished the ability to use archaeology to verify Biblical history becomes quiet easy.

Using archaeology we can find that Abraham can easily and with "proof" be placed into the 1st dynasty of Egypt. The proofs consist of the existence of the correct and same towns and cities existing as Genesis tells us they do. We can find a Canaan more in line of what the Bible describes as Canaan in Abraham times. We even find the people Abraham knows as already existing themselves in the various areas by the 1st dynasty or even earlier. We find the spacing of famines matches the famines of Abraham, Issac's, and Joseph's time. We find that there is a weak Pharaoh at the correct time for Abraham to visit in the 1st dynasty. We even find in the 1st dynasty the stopping and changing of human sacrifice to that of substitution. We find the reason why Issac is warned not to go into Egypt during his famine. We find that the correct amount of time lapses from Abraham to that of Joseph in the 3rd dynasty if we consider Imhotep as Joseph. In Imhotep we find many of the same titles, honors, and historical improvements of Egypt that is mentioned in the Bible. We find an increase of foreign population of the Delta area by the end of the 3rd dynasty. We find the prospering of the Hebrews as the Bible claims in the 4th and early 5th dynasty. At the end of the 5th dynasty we find a shift from earlier religious glorification of the Solar God and the increasing notice of Asiatics as being slaves. From the 6th dynasty we find Pharaohs that are not related to those of the 4th, 5th dynasty. We find the correct span of time as required of the Bible from Joseph to Moses, a true oppression of Asiatics, the disgrace and secret trial of a Queen of Egypt. We also from the beginning of the 6th dynasty find real reason as to why Pharaoh, along with not knowing Joseph might have feared, distrusted the inhabitation of Semites in Egypt, i.e., Sargon the Great. While at the end of the 6th dynasty we find Egypt just as Exodus in the Bible describes Egypt as being. In the 4th dynasty we first fine miracles in Pharaoh's court, in the 12th dynasty we find miracles establishing the right of a non royal person to accept the divine power of Pharaoh.

Between the collapse of the Old Kingdom, 6th dynasty and the 12th dynasty we find that Canaan suffers the same kind of collapse and sees the destruction of almost the exact same cities that the Bible says are destroyed during the conquest. In the 12th dynasty we see Egypt's Delta being settled by Canaanites in an increasing numbers, and the continued growth of the Canaanite city of Avaris. While we see forts being built along the northeastern borders to keep Asians out. We see the story of Sinuhe, telling a disgraced and exiled court member that hey, you have nothing to fear return to the Egyptian fold. The story itself is comparable in many ways to the story of Moses.

i can go on it is easy to, once we shed ourselves of the truism of the Christian Chronology that is the staple of Biblical and Near Eastern archaeology of today. There is no problem in using simple archaeology to find the verification for Biblical history without slicing and dicing either Egypt's or the Bible's recorded history.

Information is obtained from Abram Back in Time, copyrighted 2000 by Patricia Blosser-Lotfinia


Last edited by Sekhmet on Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:44 pm 
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Well I am guessing that the chariot wheels were made from wood so:

a) why didn't they rot?
b) why has no carbon dating been done on them?
c) weren't chariots brought in during the second intermediate period? thus disprooving previous theories about the exodus being in the Middle or Old Kingdoms.

Placing the Exodus at a time when Egypt had Chariots and the area around Pi-Ramsses was important and before Merenptah puts the "exodus" firmly in the reign of Ramsses II doesn't it? That is assuming that these chariot wheels are from the exodus armies of Pharaoh.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:51 pm 
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[quote="Si-Amun"]Well I am guessing that the chariot wheels were made from wood so:

a) why didn't they rot?
b) why has no carbon dating been done on them?
c) weren't chariots brought in during the second intermediate period? thus disprooving previous theories about the exodus being in the Middle or Old Kingdoms.

Placing the Exodus at a time when Egypt had Chariots and the area around Pi-Ramsses was important and before Merenptah puts the "exodus" firmly in the reign of Ramsses II doesn't it? That is assuming that these chariot wheels are from the exodus armies of Pharaoh. Which I am afraid I quite doubt (only as I don't believe in the parting of the Red Sea by Moses etc).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:01 pm 
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Si-Amun wrote:
Placing the Exodus at a time when Egypt had Chariots and the area around Pi-Ramsses was important and before Merenptah puts the "exodus" firmly in the reign of Ramsses II doesn't it? That is assuming that these chariot wheels are from the exodus armies of Pharaoh. Which I am afraid I quite doubt (only as I don't believe in the parting of the Red Sea by Moses etc).


Hi Si-Amun, i am sorry but no Merenptah's Victory Stela does not "firmly" puts the Exodus into the reign of Ramessess II. It does firmly place the Israelites in Canaan during his own time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:22 pm 
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Sorry. Perhaps I wasn't clear. These are the bits of information I am going on:

a) evidence of chariots puts the exodus after the Hyksos invasion.
b) Pi-Ramsses is mentioned pacifically, putting the action after the time of Ramsses II.
c) the stela of Merenptah tells us that the Israelites were in Canaan.

This means that during the New Kingdom the exodus happened (chariot evidence). By then the ancient sites around Pi-Ramsses were in ruin. Ramsses built Ri-Ramsses, naming it after himself. The Hebrews leave this city at some point in the New Kingdom. Less than a quarter of a century later the Israelites are found wandering Canaan as a nomadic group. The Egyptians may have interpreted the Israelite leader as a Prince as they had no name for an elected government leader. To the Egyptians the ruler of a nation was a King or a Prince, perhaps. Just by using these three pieces of information I feel that the exodus, if it happened would be firmly in the early 19th Dynasty.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:58 pm 
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Si-Amun wrote:
Sorry. Perhaps I wasn't clear. These are the bits of information I am going on:

a) evidence of chariots puts the exodus after the Hyksos invasion.
b) Pi-Ramsses is mentioned pacifically, putting the action after the time of Ramsses II.
c) the stela of Merenptah tells us that the Israelites were in Canaan.

This means that during the New Kingdom the exodus happened (chariot evidence). By then the ancient sites around Pi-Ramsses were in ruin. Ramsses built Ri-Ramsses, naming it after himself. The Hebrews leave this city at some point in the New Kingdom. Less than a quarter of a century later the Israelites are found wandering Canaan as a nomadic group. The Egyptians may have interpreted the Israelite leader as a Prince as they had no name for an elected government leader. To the Egyptians the ruler of a nation was a King or a Prince, perhaps. Just by using these three pieces of information I feel that the exodus, if it happened would be firmly in the early 19th Dynasty.


Okay here is your problem with basing the Exodus in the New Kingdom simply because Egypt had chariots at this time in accordence with Biblical wording. Your hunting and pecking at Biblical sources for your desired information. This is how, chariots are not mentioned in the Bible until the time of Moses in Exodus. But camels are mentioned in the Bible in Genesis when Abraham sends back his servant in search for a bride for his son. If, you insist on using chariots as a determinative for Biblical timing. You almost have to include camels as well or your stand to face the charge of hunting and pecking, as i leveled against you, Si-Amun. Now the real problem is faced, camels were not domesticated by man until after 1000 bce. Some centuries after the New Kingdom, and long after Merenptah's Victory Stela. But this is not possible, because Abraham and his camels come long before Moses and Pharaoh's chariots. See the problem?

If you want to argue that well redactors, and many experts do argue this, stuck in camels because camels were familiar beasts of burden in their time. You must answer my question... Then how do you know that they didn't stick in chariots as well?

Your third problem Pi-Ramesses, is basically the same. How do you know that the redactors didn't use a place name that was familiar to them over place names that weren't?

Your wrong about, Egyptians having no name for elected leaders, by the way Israelite Judges were not elected they were chosen by God. The term Judge was an ancient Egyptian term, so the Egyptians would have had little trouble in calling the "Prince" Judge if he had been a Judge. But the Egyptians called him a Prince and included him along with the other and "real" Princes of the area, therefore it is most likely that he was real prince therefore putting the dating of the Israelites at the time of Merenptah into the Monarchy period.

Espeically when real and plain archaeology can successfully place the children of Israel much farther back in time than Christian Chronology allows them to be placed.

You believe that the early 19th dynasty is the time of the Exodus. Dr. K.A. Kitchen believes the earliest it could have happened is sometime after the 13th year of Ramesses II. Before that Egypt has Ramesses I re-establishing Egyptian control over the Sinai, and his son Seti I, re-established control over southern Canaan. So, neither of these Pharaohs could apparently be the Pharaoh of Exodus. Ramesses II was busy waging war himself in Northern Syria until his 12 years.

It appears to me Si-Amun that while you are not a christian you insist on using christian chronology to date Biblical events against Egyptian history. All the while knowing that such events are not fesiable, logical, or realistic... however it helps you to minimize Biblical events and statments in favor of your own. As a non christian you should not care whether or not Biblical events happened or not, but that simply the truth be found, as i do. If i am wrong on this please accept my apology.


Last edited by Sekhmet on Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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