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Gods Wives
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:55 pm 
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I trust most of you know what I mean if I talk about the "Gods Wives of Amun", so I wont give much of an introduction. I will limit to this: The Gods Wife was an exulted religous position given to normaly Royal women. It was symbolically the role of being wife to the god Amun and was used by many women (including Hatchepsut) to further their position. What I want to know is what happened to the role after Hatchepsut, up until the end of the eighteenth dynasty? From the reign of Amenhotep III to that of Ay.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:44 am 
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Hi again Si-Amun,

KingTutOne.com has a nice article about the God's Wives. Here is a link for you i hope you enjoy.
http://www.kingtutone.com/divine/

To answer you question here, Hatshepsut undoubtly was the last God's Wife with any real power for sometime. The office did not die out until the reign of Amenhotep III, where we find reference to an unnamed God's Wife then it apparently was just a title for favored wives of Kings and they don't appear to have used it as the 18th dynasty Queens had. Then nothing really until the 20th Dynasty and Ramesse IV who names his daughter Isis to the post.

After Hatshepsut, her daughter Neferura held the title. After her the title is used by Thutmose III's mother Aset followed by his daughter, Meritamun. During the reign of Amenhotep II his mother Meritra, is given the title. While Tiaa, the mother of Thutmose IV is the last named god’s wife.

While none of these God's Wives acheived any reknown, and certainly none along the lines of the first God's Wife Ahmose-Nefertiti. To conclude that it died out with that last unnamed God's Wife from Amenhotep III's reign would i feel be wrong. With the advent of Queen Tiy, Nefertiti, and Ankhesenamun we see queens with nearly equal positions with their husbands and with atleast the first two real power along the lines of Ahmose-Nefertiti. After the reign of Tutankhamun the office just becomes an occassional title used by the Pharaoh's favored wife.

There is some memory of the God's Wife in the incorperation of Queen Nefertari in the temple of Ramesses II in Nubia and the establishment of her temple own there.

Until the reign of Ramesse IV, and his daughter Isis we really don't have much of a God's Wife existence. He placed his daughter there in the hopes of curtailing the corruption that was rampart in Thebes at this time.

It takes until the 21st Dynasty before we get real reformation of the position and power. The office grows in power, presitage, and offices until the Persians end Egypt's independence.

I hope you check out our article about this most interesting position and office.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:36 pm 
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Thanks for that Sekhmet. You really don't remind me of a viscious and destructive deity at all! You seem far too nice to have almost destroyed humanity. I think a gentler goddess such as Bast would have been more suitable! Thankyou for that information, as always you have returned up trumps with exactly what i needed. We may have our disagreements over Amarna but when it comes down to it I have to admire you. Is there anything you don't know?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:36 am 
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I was wondering that as well, lol.


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Re: Gods Wives
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:42 pm 
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Si-Amun wrote:
I trust most of you know what I mean if I talk about the "Gods Wives of Amun", so I wont give much of an introduction. I will limit to this: The Gods Wife was an exulted religous position given to normaly Royal women. It was symbolically the role of being wife to the god Amun and was used by many women (including Hatchepsut) to further their position. What I want to know is what happened to the role after Hatchepsut, up until the end of the eighteenth dynasty? From the reign of Amenhotep III to that of Ay.


Aww, thanks Si-Amun, try me on the Ptolomies :) No please don't LOL :) But Sekhmet had more going for her than what her most famous story of the destruction of mankind Si-Amun, tells. She was a noted healer, and she functioned as a protector of Egypt.

The Assyrians defeated Egypt, and in the remains of the Assyrian capital cities we find the famous royal lion hunts scenes. I sometimes look upon them and see a double meaning. Assyria hunted and defeated Egypt, protected by the great Sekhmet.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:26 am 
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I do recognise her good attributes but she was still a destructive deity. She has two distinct sides, i hope your not saying that you are 2 faced! lol


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:14 am 
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originally posted by Sekhmet

Quote:
thanks Si-Amun, try me on the Ptolomies


try me on the Ptolemies. I once put together a website on the Ptolemaic royal women but unfortunately I didn't have time to maintain it. Very fond of Arsinoe II.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:34 am 
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Damn. I really love the Ptolomaic women. I have always loved the Cleopatras, it is a bit like the whole Tutankhamun/Ramsses thing, where people choose the most famous but I like Cleopatra VII for all the unfamous things that she did, all the evil pieces of her reign! lol. Just a quick question Kiya - Were there any nice normal Ptolomaic Queens, because they all seem to be cruel and ruthless! Arsinoe II was always a bit too nice for me! lol.
I love Arsinoe I, she was more of a Ptolemy in character than her sister-in-law. Treason, murder, exile and Dynastic lines. I would have loved to see those women though, just to see them move and talk. I have to admire them, they showed a strength in women that was virtually unequalled until the dawn of the modern era. I really do not understand ho anyone can dislike the study of Ptolomaic Egypt, each ruler and Queen had their own personality and life. From Ptolemy I, the accomplished and strong General under Alexander to the fat and incompetant flautist, Ptolemy XII. Who could forget the traitorous Arsinoe I, or the sibling murdering Cleopatra VII? How could one forget the strong willed Cleopatra III or the pot bellied repulsive Ptolemy VIII Euergetes II? I love the Ptolomiac line, can anyone else think of some really distinct characters from Egyptian Royalty? Some where their very name conjures up a complete image of them, every so often a dynasty emerges which is so distinct that you only have to hear the name for an image to appear in your mind. I also get like it with the Italian Julio Dynasty and the Medici of Florence.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:31 am 
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Are we mixing up our Arsinoe's? I picked Arsinoe II because she was a women who new what she wanted and went for it even if it didn't always work out. Treason, murder and exile were words I would assign to her and not Arsinoe I who was Ptolemy II first wife. As I understand it Arsinoe II engineered the exile of her rival Arsinoe I and contrived to become the consort of her brother. This after havong fled Thrace from her second husband. Arsinoe I seems to have been a bit of a victim of all this although i'm sure there is more to it.

as for nice Ptolemaic queens well how about Cleopatra Berenice III. Became queen and ruler on the death of her father Ptolemy IX and was married to her uncle Ptolemy X. She was muched loved by the people and when Ptolemy X died she married his son Ptolemy XI but he had her murdered. Now I don't think she would have survived as long as she did if she did not have a streak of ruthlessness in her like all the Ptolemies but she appears to have been one of the best of a bad lot.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:34 am 
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Arsinoe II was the sister of Ptolemy right? If she was then I have the right one. I was reading that Arsinoe I was exiled and quite a shady character herself! From the snippet I read about Arsinoe II it seemed that she was well liked and popular. I shall have to do a bit more research! I have always concentrated on the end of the Ptolomaic line, from Ptolemy XII to the end of Greek rule. Berenice III was a lovely woman! It must be the name Berenice, they were all pretty nasty. The daughter of Ptolemy XII, Berenice, murdered her husband and virtually usurped the throne from her father when he was driven out of Egypt. Ptolemy XII did get his own back though, I think you know what I mean! lol


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:35 am 
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Yes Arsinoe II was the sister to Ptolemy II but seems to have been more ruthless than her predeccessor. Yes she was much beloved by the people but dam she was the example by which all further Ptolemaic queens followed. Her life before she returned to Eygypt marrying Lysamachus of Thrace and then his son having schemed and intrigued over there, she fled to egypt and displaced her rival. The rest is history, she became deified in her own lifetime like no queen before her.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:44 pm 
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I am in two minds over her to be honest. Part of me thinks of her as a scheming, evil snake but the evidence of her popularity and deification make me think otherwise. What acts did she actually committ that were so awful? I mean acts which she definately performed, not the maybes that you often get with the Ptolemies.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:08 am 
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Yes she does seemed to have been very popular and to be deified in her own lifetime was extroidinary to say the least. What I know about her is contradictory and confusing but that she schemed seems to be agreed by most.

She married King Lysimachus of Thrace at sixteen years of age. Now a few sources state that when her husband died, she was offered a deal by a potential second mate. If she married him, she was promised to rule Thrace. This marriage, however, was a scam. Her second husband only wanted to get close to her sons to kill them. When he had succeeded in killing two of her sons and the third fled for his life, she returned to her homeland with a plan to gain power in Egypt.

Most sources tend to state something along the following lines, with minor differences:
She killed or attempted to kill her step son Agathokles in order that one of her children would succeed to the throne in Thrace. Whatever happened her plan to grab power failed and she fled to her half brother Ceraunous in Macedonia whom she married however this king had her sons murdered. She fled again to Egypt and her brother and she appears to have instigated the accusation and exile of her brother Ptolemy II's first wife, Arsinoe I who isn't really heard from again.

Her glorification was at the instigation of her brother. Maybe he had secretly loved his sister for years. He obviously loved her a great deal but politics came into this aswell. he Ptolemies followed pharaonic tradition in sibling marriages. A gloried and deified sister-wife would glorify and reinforce Ptolemy's right to the throne.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:20 pm 
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Like most helenistic women I am in two minds again. She seems both the instigator and the victim. Her sons were murdered and she was forced to flee? That gains her a lot of sympathy for me as I warm to the image of the tragic queen. Then again she did murder her way as well. I would not say she was particularly evil or wicked, but a child of the times she was born into. Would she have lived if she had not been as ruthless?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:29 am 
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Yes I agree she was a woman of her times. Nearly all the Ptolemaic queens schemed, intrigued and murdered as much as their brother/husbands.
I thought of another nice Ptolemaic queen in addition to Cleopatra-Berencie III. How about Berenice II. Very strong and loyal wife and look how she died, her own son ordered her death. Ok when she caught her first husband in bed with her mother she had him executed but i'd be p****d off if I caught my mother with my other half:-)


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