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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:16 pm 
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Maybe it did not die there but maybe later at a young age. In the book Nefertiti By Joyce Tyldesley she states "Outside the chamber there are three registers of figures. The bottom row is taken up by a line of tables prepared for a feast.Above this we see a nurse , standing before a group or mourners and holding a child in her arms. The nurse is followed by two female attendants who carry the fans customarily used to signal royalty. The upper register shows a distressed female figure being restrained-Geoffrey Martinsuggests that she may be the wet-nurse of the deceased-and groups of frenzied mourners, including a dignitary who may have been summoned to witness an imminent royal birth. It is the greatest misfortune that the inscription which would have named the baby is lost. Although some have sought to idenyify the infant as either Setepenre or a subsequent child of Nefertiti , or even a baby born to Kiya , the otherwise unexplained presence of an infant at a death scene leads to the in inevitable conclusion that the mother , Meketaten, has died in labour."

Later she says" There is no record of any Meketaten-the-younger at Amarna,although it is of course possible that the baby was a male , died in infancy,or was given a more original name."

I am not sure if we can really say that Meketaten did or did not die during child birth. Also in a second scene of Meketaten in a pavilion with her statue or maybe her body Akhenaten and Nefertiti are present and 3 of their daughters , but the baby in the earlier scene is not present.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:37 pm 
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Thank you Ankhesenamun3 for your source. First off one can see it as Dr. Tyldesley states. We have no knowledge of how births were celebrated in ancient Egypt royal families. Outside of of royal births, women normally in lower classed families, nobles included were done outside in a speical birthing kiosk usually in the garden, or on top of the house in the lower classes. I can tell you that her description of this 18th dynasty royal birth, is comparable to the birth of French royals of the 18th century. There is of course a great deal of time between the two. We do know that death in ancient Egypt was celebrated with a feast. Of which court officals, mourners, and family attended again it appears to me she is actually describing a funeral more than a royal birth. That is unless she is confusing Egypt's 18th Dynasty royal births with France's 18th century royal births.

To assume that Meketaten's child would have been named after her. Is based i bet, on the assumption that Meritaten Tashery and Ankhesenpaaten Tashery were named for their 'mother's' Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten.
Thankyou again. If you could be so kind as to include the page that would really be helpful.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:22 pm 
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Yo, Ankhesenamun3 :)

i have been thinking about your quote from Dr. Tyldesley. This is what i have considered. i would appreciate your consideration of what i have been thinking. Oh, and i did find that your source page in my own book by Dr. Tyldesley :) page 169.

1) the funerary beliefs of the Amarna Royals are not well understood; they are so unlike the beliefs from the rest of Ancient Egypt.
2) i don't know how well, you are familiar with the tomb paintings of the Amarna area. Myself, i have viewed and studied a good many of them. To me they are like snapshots, pictures taken of a particular meaningful experience that one might want to look at often, be reassured.
3) on page 170 we see the scene you wrote about. May i ask, to you where does it look like a birthing scene turn real bad? To me it looks very much like a pure and simple mourning scene. Notice the crate like thing on the wheely thing below what remains of Meketaten's parents feet? Next to what appears to be a partly open box. Okay look over the rest of the things that continues on that line that goes beyond the crossline. There we find Dr. Tyldesley's feast goods. Do you notice more of the box like objects on that line? i do. Now notice that Dr. Tyldesley makes no notation of the young women next to Meketaten, opposite from her parents? Who do you think they might be?
i think they might be Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten... notice how the foremost one is an adult woman in dress and hairstyle? While the 2nd young woman is wearing a transparent dress and has the sidelock of youth?
4) Okay what would so many box like things, and wheely things be doing at a childbirth? Along with food and drink? i can't think of any purpose for the box like things, to be honest. Being a nurse, i can think of why a wheely thing might be used in modern childbirth, but for the life of me not an Ancient Egyptian one... :? However i can see purpose of all these things at a tombside final farewell to a beloved daughter, sister and royal princess. Can you see this with me? In the picture on page 170.
5) Again the child. Even today we don't normally allow very young children to attend funerals, or burials. Why should the Egyptians allow them? Crying babies distract from the primary purpose of mourning the dead. Take another look at the woman i identify as Meritaten... if her dead sister is old enough at the presumed age of 12. As Dr. Tyldesley states she was, to have had a child her sister Meritaten even older is certainly able to have had a living child. As Meketaten's maybe first niece or nephew, and a definate great delight to the new aunt. Would not an exception to the rule of no small babies at the funeral, or burial be relaxed at bit? I think it might be. Espeically in a painting?
6) Two of the most undying thoughts in most humans when it comes to death their death; is will i be remembered, will i be missed, mourned? Add to an ancient Egyptian will i be supplied by the living when i am dead? Does not this scene in a tomb serve as a snapshot of how Meketaten was missed, mourned, and supplied when she was buried. She certainly wasn't able to see it as we understand death, but safe in her tomb she could look upon it and know. Yes, to all her questions.

Okay, you still with me? Turn your book page 171, Dr. Tyldesley is correct about the use of a bower being a Memphisite thing not a Theban thing. Akhenaten really did not like Thebes, the home of Amun. On the other hand he most likely succeed his older brother as High Priest of Ptah whose domine was Memphis. The Mnevis bull that he had brought to Akhetaten belonged to Ptah of Memphis. She doesn't go into these, because she really wants to believe that the bower is a clue to Meketaten's death. But she is enough of a professional to offer a more realistic explaination.

Turn the page to 172 and see the scene she has described on page 171. The youngest 2 babies of Nefertiti and Akhenaten are absent in this again tomb painting for the dead daughter Meketaten. And this time Meritaten is dressed in the dress of a young princess, and is wearing the sidelock all the Amarna princess are known for wearing. So, what gives? Can i still be right?
Oh, yes... consider if you were an Egyptian ka looking upon a scene of your still living family... paying tribute, remembering you, making needed funerary goods to continue your other world existence...who would you want showing on it? Myself i would want those i was closet to in the family. Not the babies who aren't even really old enough to attend temple services let alone funerary related services. i would want them dressed how? As i best remember them, of course! What is her best memory of how Meritaten was dressed, like her and her younger sisters Ankhesenpaaten and Neferneferuaten-the younger. Not as a young woman, but as a young princess.

Notice too, on the 2nd picture that while food and drink are very evident the boxes are not, nor is the wheely thing. Why because this is not a tombside scene, but is a memory picture for Meketaten. Which would serve to assure her she was not forgotten. Here she could not forget her living family, friends and servants who continued to mourn and supply her needs.

i hope Akhnesenamun3 you do look at these pictures closely and see. That what i am saying has as much if not more agreement than what Dr. Tyldesley has to say about them.

Good work Akhnesenamun3! Good work! Getting me to think like this LOL thanks! :idea:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:06 pm 
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I've always thought that Beketaten was likely Tiye's daughter. In the images that show her, she does seem to be hanging around with Tiye a fair bit.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:36 pm 
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:D Thanks, Sekhmet you have brought many good things to look at and think about in the scene. The two young women next to Meketaten would seem to be Meritaten and Ankhesenamun. But I can not find the wheels??If you can describe them more (as funny as that sounds). But wheels would not really fit a childbirth. Also in the same book Nefertiti
there is another scene which shows the supposed death of Kiya. In that scene I can not find any wheels even thought I can only see one leg of the bier. Which could say that maybe this really is the scene of a childbirth , maybe this suggests what a really childbirth would look like.But how do we know this even shows a death of Kiya thought childbirth. I mean maybe the baby who is shown is a child of someone attending the funeral. I mean how can they be sure or what tells them that the child is a new born? :arrow: The only only way to really know is if it says somewhere that Kiya had died in labour.

For the scene of Kiya's death go to page 162.(sorry for not including page number last time) :oops:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:34 am 
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Tadukhipa wrote:
I've always thought that Beketaten was likely Tiye's daughter. In the images that show her, she does seem to be hanging around with Tiye a fair bit.


You are right Tadukhipa, Princess Beketaten is considered and acclaimed as the daughter of Amenhotep III and his wife Queen Tiye. And she does hang around her mother a lot :) We were discussing who the King's daughter might have been if not the accepted King's daughters Meritaten or Ankhesenamun. i suggested perhaps it was the King's daughter Princess Beketaten.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:19 am 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
:D Thanks, Sekhmet you have brought many good things to look at and think about in the scene. The two young women next to Meketaten would seem to be Meritaten and Ankhesenamun. But I can not find the wheels??If you can describe them more (as funny as that sounds). But wheels would not really fit a childbirth. Also in the same book Nefertiti
there is another scene which shows the supposed death of Kiya. In that scene I can not find any wheels even thought I can only see one leg of the bier. Which could say that maybe this really is the scene of a childbirth , maybe this suggests what a really childbirth would look like.But how do we know this even shows a death of Kiya thought childbirth. I mean maybe the baby who is shown is a child of someone attending the funeral. I mean how can they be sure or what tells them that the child is a new born? :arrow: The only only way to really know is if it says somewhere that Kiya had died in labour.

For the scene of Kiya's death go to page 162.(sorry for not including page number last time) :oops:


Okay Ankhesenamun3 :) Turn to page 170, and the picture of the wheely thing. It is the first picture on that bottom register, the very bottom of the line that all the objects rest on. There is box like crate with its lid closed, look on down. See the 2 balls? To me because of the way they are drawn into the recess of the triangles which seem to be connected to yet, a another partically destroyed ball they appear more like wheels to me than anything else. i can't help but to see it as a cart bearing the weight of something very heavy. The chest bearing the canopic jars maybe?

As for the scene on page 162... Dr. Tyldesley says it best on page 161. ..."in grief as they stand before something or someone who has unfortunately been lost to us". She mentions as well that it is at the palace.
On page 162, she continues..." The story behind the tragedy seems clear and simple. A mother has died giving birth to a royal child.... Martin has suggested that the lady on the bier might be Kiya, dying as she gave birth...

As Dr. Tyldesley says, who or what "is lost to us". So, to consider it to be the death of Kiya during childbirth is in my opinion a big jump. There is no wheely thing in this, and the box like objects seem to be missing as well.
What do i make of this? We do know that Queen Tiy died at Amarna and was buried in Akhenaten's royal tomb. Why it can't be her death scene at the palace i don't know? To me Akhenaten would have taken the death of his mother in a harder fashion than a secondary wife. Here we see him as Dr.Tydlesley writes, on page 162, "Akhenaten reaches out to grasp his wife's arm in a poignant gesture of comfort and solidarity". For a secondary wife?

As for the child, it may very well be the child of her youngest daughter Beketaten, or even her great-grandchild by Meritaten signifing that while you are gone, you do continue.
There is no reason to consider the "young woman lying on a bier" as an actual young woman. In Egyptian theology once you died and were justified, you became young again. It could be Queen Tiy, already being recongized as once again a young woman in death.

To me this makes more sense than conjuring up Kiya into the royal tomb that was meant to be the final resting place of Queen Tiy, Nefertiti, Meritaten, and Akhenaten. (It did become as well, the final resting place for Meketaten as well.)


I do fully agree with your last statement Ankhesenamun3, however that statement needed to prove it is the death of Kiya we are looking at is as gone as all other information.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:35 pm 
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:shock: Oh , I do see the what appear to be wheels , in the first scene. But could they not just be a decoration on the wall and the boxes are sitting on a shelf above the decoration.

I do also agree that there is no real proof that the deceased is Kiya. No where does it state in the scene that is her. But, I once read that they thought it maybe was Kiya because Tutankhamun was born aroung that time and I guess they assumed Kiya was his mother so ,well that adds up.But, then there is the issue that there is no really proof to even who Tut's mother is.But as you stated there is no crates in the second scene , which some say to be Kiya. Well if Meketaten did have crates and that could suggest maybe it was not a birth scene , then this one does not show does this say it is a birth scene. It's just a thought.


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