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Re: The Exodus, Egyptian Chronology, & The Bible - Part
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:35 pm 
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Lysimachus wrote:
Part 2


24. THE IPUWER PAPYRUS


If you had taken the time Lysimachus you would have found a thread on the Pharaohs topics that discuss these papers. What i bet your source doesn't do is tell you that these papers originally date to the 1st Intermediate Period not the 18th Dynasty. The 1st Intermediate Period dates to the period just after the down fall of the Old Kingdon last ruled by Pepy II. Bet you don't even know who is first credited with discovering the similarities.

Have a great day.


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Re: The Exodus, Egyptian Chronology, & The Bible - Part
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:12 am 
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Lysimachus wrote:
Part 1
. They were shepherds and had no possibility of defending themselves. Not least the biblical texts indicate that their position was weak and led them to become slaves, which shows how weak they were as a warrior people (Ex. 1-14).


Okay Lysimachus,

I can't believe you buy this! You a proclaimed Biblical literalist! i am sorry don't you read your Bible? It is certain your source doesn't let me point out scripture that disagrees about the weak nature of, your sources, shepard folk.

Let us first look at what scripiture says about Pharaoh's reasons as to why he wanted to control the Hebrews Exodus 1:9 "Behold, the people of the sons of Isreael are more and mightier than we"
Exodus 1:10 "... and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those that hate us and fight against us and depart for the land."
Whoa! it doesn't sound like your source knows what he is talking about shepards not being able to defend themselves. i do believe he has the peaceful shepard that is Christ mixed up with the sons of Israel.

Have you ever read the blessings of Jacob on his sons? OH my he certainly knew his sons... Genesis 49.
"Reuben, ..Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power, uncontrolled as water"
"Simeon, Levi brothers; their swords are implements of violence."
"Judah... Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies."
"Dan shall be a serpent in the way."
"Glad raiders shall raid him, but he will raid at their heels."
"Benjamin is a ravenous wolf."

Notice out of 12 sons 7 are warriors types? And these were the founding fathers of the sons of Israel.

Now let us consider the Biblical view of human not Christ like shepards will we Lysimachus.

Genesis 14:14
Abram heard his relative had been taken captive. He leads out his trained men born in his house 318 of them and goes after the enemy. He divided his forces and defeated the enemy that had captured his relative. I note too that the number 318 refers only to trained men.

Genesis 31:23-29
Laban, Jacob's father-in-law takes his kinsmen catches up with Jacob and family... telling him "It is in my power to do you harm."!

Genesis 33:1
Esau, Jacob's brother upon hearing his brother had returns rides out to meet him with 400 men. Esau the warrior the hunter.

Genesis 34:25
Jacob's sons Simeon and Levi killed every male of the city of Shechem. Sure it was the 3rd day after the men of Shechem circumcised themselves to keep from being killed by all the brothers but really none of the men could defend themselves against 2 men?

Then they move in to the wilderness frighten people and conqueor cities! Oh yes, peaceful shepard folks.

Ah let us skip a few generations... to David the shepard boy :) who killed wolves, bears in defence of his sheep. He was the giant killer, the rebel, the general. Another example of peaceful shepards from the weak house of Israel.

In historical times when there is no doubt of the existance of Israel the primary source of income for Jewish men were as mercernaries in other peoples armies are you aware of this Lysimachus?

Some peaceful family of shepards... even the Pharaoh of Oppression has a better grasp of reality than your source i think Lysimachus.

I can't believe you brought this stuff, oh dear, but you did. LOL What isn't funny is you expect me to buy it too. Thank God i do know my Bible!

FYI the Lord Weni of the 6th dynasty found out just how peaceful those that lived in the Goshen and Southern Canaan area were... it took him 5 campaigns to enslave them. They weren't real peaceful in his time.
PS and that is just his campaigns we don't know just how many others were mounted in the same period.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:19 am 
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Hi Sekhment,

Quote:
…to Joseph in the 3rd Dynasty,


Now that agrees with Imhotep being Joseph :)

Quote:
… to Moses in the 6th Dynasty


The Bible speaks of Pharaoh having 600 chosen chariots. I didn’t know the 6th dynasty was noted for their chariots during this time of the Old Kingdom. Do not get me wrong, I believe the use of the chariot most likely did come during the Old Kingdom, but they were less sturdy, and not yet designed for war. But the war chariot--this expensive weapon spread throughout the Middle East and is thought to have reached Egypt with the conquering Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period. It is known that war chariots were being mass-produced in Egypt by about 1435 BC. During this period, the wheels became a four-spoke design and the entire Egyptian chariot became much lighter and sophisticated. The chariots of Egypt betrayed its Asiatic origin in various ways, by the names of its parts which were Semtic and by its decorations which often took the form of date palm branches or animals opposing each other, both Syrian motifs. It wasn’t until about the 15th century BC that Pharaoh Thutmosis III had over a thousand chariots at his disposal; by 1400 BC the Great King of Mitanni had amassed several times that number. One can picture these huge numbers of vehicles charging across the plain straight toward the enemy, the psychological impact of such a charge would have been enormous on untrained and unsteady troops.

This tallies perfectly with our hypothesis, since the scripture plainly states an army of 250,000, consisting 600 chosen chariots, plus “all the chariots of Egypt”. This would be well over a thousand chariots. No way are you going to convince me that they had these kinds of chariots back in the 6th dynasty. On top of this, we have identified about 20 or more chariot wheels very similar to the wheels used in King Tut’s tomb, and on inscriptions of the 18thy dynasty. Hub caps of chariot wheels have been preserved, resembling the same style of hub caps recognized at the bottom of Aqaba. You continue to insist that the wheels found at the bottom of Aqaba are of little significance and say “so what”. I say to you, they are much more significant than you are willing to grant.

No way is your theory going to have any flying potential unless you can prove that the 6th dynasty was noted for their mass chariots. I am counting so many holes in your theory, I’m beginning to lose count.

Quote:
i doubt sincerely that you ever heard of Sextus Julius Africanus before coming to this board and discussions with me


I have heard a little of him, but not much. I asked one of my friends (27 years old) (oh, btw, I’m 25), who was part of an archeologist team, and he said he’d never heard of him at all. I did hear that our Seventh-Day Adventist pioneers did use Ussher for dating the Exodus, but those theories have changed. (btw, I come from SDA background, but I am not associated nor a member of the SDA church. I do, however, strongly believe in historic SDA principles and values).

Quote:
Would and does sincerely threaten literalists position of a YEC.


I’m not threatened in the least. I’ve read numerous arguments against the YEC theories, and then read counter arguments that prove it doesn’t make a dent to discredit our theory. You say we are limiting God to a 6000 year old earth. I say you are limiting God to say that he cannot make events happen within that time period. You just might be surprised at the end of time that the earth is indeed much younger than you imagine. I will admit, I derive my sources else where through other means if inspiration. But if I were to tell you, you would mock me.

Quote:
Don't expect much more from me on your posts Seen it, heard it, considered it and dismissed it as nonpertient, distortive of both scripture, history and disrespectful to God and his works upon this earth. My own reseach where i know my sources, their background, their purpose in writing and my checks are far more convincing to me. But thank you for your time and effort.


You’re only hardening yourself when you come across with this position. How sad, but I will be praying for you. If I were you I would not even mention the name “God” if you are no Christian. Perhaps you do believe in God, but not Jesus?

I guarantee you Sekhmet, you have not heard it, seen it, nor considered it like you think you have. You may have read articles on the net similar, but nowhere are you going to see the vast comparisons that have been made. Moller got it right, this I am quite sure of. It would be of great benefit to you if you would purchase that book and read it with a fine tooth comb, for what I’m posting is only a fraction. But I do not require that you must read a book as you do with me. At least I’m willing to go through the time and provide the info from the books so you don’t have to read it. Whereas you just list to me book after book and tell me I better read them.

Quote:
Oh yes, for consideration of Senmut please see the thread Hatshepsut's man. You might learn some real facts about that interesting man. That isn't a 3000 year old postmortem sociology test. have a great day!


I’ve already read and learned about these “facts”. There was an ongoing war about this very subject at the EVC forums. I’m sorry, but these “interesting facts” do not negate the overwhelming evidence which point this man to Moses. Be aware that various characteristics of individuals were “egyptianized” to fit the belief system. There is nothing new here. I have read a lot more than you think.

Quote:
Please read up on Julius Sextus Africanus there are a few and i mean a very few good websites on him.


You can be sure I will do that. But be aware that he was a false prophet. Sextus Julius Africanus (ca. 160-240) predicted the second coming of Jesus in the year 500 - exactly 6,000 years after "creation." He based the prediction on his calculations of 5,000 years from the time of creation to the Jewish Babylonian exile, plus another 1,000 since. While his views spread quickly among the Christian west, the acceptance level for being consistently wrong was slowly shrinking. Then later he predicted the second coming of Jesus in the year 800. How can you trust a man such as this?

Quote:
24. THE IPUWER PAPYRUS

Quote:
If you had taken the time Lysimachus you would have found a thread on the Pharaohs topics that discuss these papers. What i bet your source doesn't do is tell you that these papers originally date to the 1st Intermediate Period not the 18th Dynasty. The 1st Intermediate Period dates to the period just after the down fall of the Old Kingdon last ruled by Pepy II. Bet you don't even know who is first credited with discovering the similarities.


This too was discussed in previous forums. It was concluded that there really is no way to prove that they date from the 1st Intermediate Period. Absolutely no way to prove it at all. There are some indications pointing to that possibility, but it is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period.

On the other hand, Miriam Lichtheim, following S. Luria, contends that:

the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer' has not only no bearing whatever on the long past First Intermediate Period, it also does not derive from any other historical situation. It is the last, fullest, most exaggerated and hence least successful, composition on the theme "order versus chaos." M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I, p.150

Knowing full well that Egypt was notorious for recording mainly that which was of benefit to their kingdom, and that disasters, losses, and particular individuals which were known to be a disgrace to the kingdom were erased from memory in numerous inscriptions and hieroglyphs, the idea is not far fetched that Ipuwer wrote of that which happened in the late 18th dynasty, but for the sake of pride, dated it much earlier during the 1st Intermediate Period. It may have influenced the changed from the 18th to the 19th dynasty. After all, the works are from the early 19th dynasty.

Concerning 1st Kings 6:1 (not 2nd Kings as you keep stating ;) ), you keep bringing up Judges 2 and telling me that it conflicts with 1st Kings 6:1. Not only do I not add up the years you mentioned in Judges 2, this date is confirmed by Judges 11:26, which states that 300 years elapsed from the time of the Israelite entry into Canaan to the time of Jephthah, who judged Israel in the second half of the 12th century B.C.E. So it is evident that 1st Kings 6:1 is supported elsewhere.


Quote:
Quote:
. They were shepherds and had no possibility of defending themselves. Not least the biblical texts indicate that their position was weak and led them to become slaves, which shows how weak they were as a warrior people (Ex. 1-14).




Okay Lysimachus,

I can't believe you buy this! You a proclaimed Biblical literalist! i am sorry don't you read your Bible? It is certain your source doesn't let me point out scripture that disagrees about the weak nature of, your sources, shepard folk.

Let us first look at what scripiture says about Pharaoh's reasons as to why he wanted to control the Hebrews Exodus 1:9 "Behold, the people of the sons of Isreael are more and mightier than we"
Exodus 1:10 "... and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those that hate us and fight against us and depart for the land."
Whoa! it doesn't sound like your source knows what he is talking about shepards not being able to defend themselves. i do believe he has the peaceful shepard that is Christ mixed up with the sons of Israel.

Have you ever read the blessings of Jacob on his sons? OH my he certainly knew his sons... Genesis 49.
"Reuben, ..Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power, uncontrolled as water"
"Simeon, Levi brothers; their swords are implements of violence."
"Judah... Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies."
"Dan shall be a serpent in the way."
"Glad raiders shall raid him, but he will raid at their heels."
"Benjamin is a ravenous wolf."

Notice out of 12 sons 7 are warriors types? And these were the founding fathers of the sons of Israel.

Now let us consider the Biblical view of human not Christ like shepards will we Lysimachus.

Genesis 14:14
Abram heard his relative had been taken captive. He leads out his trained men born in his house 318 of them and goes after the enemy. He divided his forces and defeated the enemy that had captured his relative. I note too that the number 318 refers only to trained men.

Genesis 31:23-29
Laban, Jacob's father-in-law takes his kinsmen catches up with Jacob and family... telling him "It is in my power to do you harm."!

Genesis 33:1
Esau, Jacob's brother upon hearing his brother had returns rides out to meet him with 400 men. Esau the warrior the hunter.

Genesis 34:25
Jacob's sons Simeon and Levi killed every male of the city of Shechem. Sure it was the 3rd day after the men of Shechem circumcised themselves to keep from being killed by all the brothers but really none of the men could defend themselves against 2 men?

Then they move in to the wilderness frighten people and conqueor cities! Oh yes, peaceful shepard folks.

Ah let us skip a few generations... to David the shepard boy who killed wolves, bears in defence of his sheep. He was the giant killer, the rebel, the general. Another example of peaceful shepards from the weak house of Israel.

In historical times when there is no doubt of the existance of Israel the primary source of income for Jewish men were as mercernaries in other peoples armies are you aware of this Lysimachus?

Some peaceful family of shepards... even the Pharaoh of Oppression has a better grasp of reality than your source i think Lysimachus.

I can't believe you brought this stuff, oh dear, but you did. LOL What isn't funny is you expect me to buy it too. Thank God i do know my Bible!

FYI the Lord Weni of the 6th dynasty found out just how peaceful those that lived in the Goshen and Southern Canaan area were... it took him 5 campaigns to enslave them. They weren't real peaceful in his time.
PS and that is just his campaigns we don't know just how many others were mounted in the same period.


You may know your Bible, but that doesn’t mean you have the discernment to properly interpret it. I know people who have read the Bible 5 or more times over, and can quote verse after verse, but they don’t have a hair of spirituality on them. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with using the term “shepherds” for the time being. This was a labeling by the Egyptians – “they were a weak people at that time” (so it appeared) . Those verses indicating their “might”, “great number”, and may “fight against us” are simply due to the fact that years had passed, and these “shepherds” have grown in number. The original term seemed to apply, but does equating a particular name of meaning necessarily negate the possibility of change in context in strength with these people? Not in the least. God had blessed these “shepherds”, and they multiplied exceedingly. As a result, Pharaoh and the royal court began to develop concern. During the time of Rueben, they did have strength to fight, but in comparison to a vast empire such as Egypt, they looked at this “small band of Israelites” and there is reason to understand why they would have coined this name. Their (the Hebrews) original appearance that warranted the name “shepherds” due to the conditions they met up with did not seal their doom in the least. The fact remains, according to scripture, they DID become slaves. In the eyes of the Egyptians, the name wouldn’t be far fetched for the time. But when it came to the concern of their ever increasing strength during the Exodus, I don’t think that name applied anymore.

It baffles me how you cannot think of this on your own Sekhmet. I trusted you were more intelligent than that. You are twisting scripture without weighing the circumstances, and seem incapable of correctly harmonizing verses. And for your information, I do read my Bible. I have even lectured and given Bible studies at my college to other students – which were quite amazed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 4:46 pm 
Pharaoh
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Lysimachus wrote:

Table 6. A comparsion of Senmuts characteristics from ref 35 (J.. Tyldesley (1998) Hatchepsut, the Female Pharaoh, Penguin Books, Harmondsworth, England.) in relation to Moses as described in the Bible texts, mainly the book of Exodus(B), and in some cases in relation to descriptions by Josephus(J).

1 SENMUT"...son of humble parents." MOSES Son of Hebrew slaves (B)
To infer that humble parents equal slaves is a large jump in terms... the parents of Senmut are addressed in terms indicting they were Egyptian citizens... The Honorable Ramose and the Lady of the House Hatnefret are not terms normally considered of slaves. Proof reality check... poor.

2 SENMUT "Unfortunately, we have no means of knowing when Senmut had started his illustrious royal career."
MOSES Moses was found in the reeds of the Nile river at the age of three months by the princess at the royal court (B).
Not pertinent.....Proof reality check... poor.

3 SENMUT "Driven by a burning desire to shake off his lowly origins..." MOSES Lowly origins(slaves)(B).
What lowly born person isn't driven by a burning desire to improve their station? Moses at the age of 3 months is adopted by Pharaoh's daughter ... as a child he is never not aware of his position as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.
Proof reality check... poor

4 SENMUT
"He rose rapidly through the ranks..." MOSES Became heir to the throne (B).
Senmut may have rose rapidly through the ranks... Moses was adopted into the highest rank.
Proof reality check... poor

5 SENMUT"...before quitting the army..." MOSES Was a general (J).
First off scripture does not credit Moses with being a general... this is from Josephus a failed general and traitor to his own people. He claims access to "secret texts" available only to him as a servant of the Flavius Emperors. Right!
Proof reality check... poor

6 SENMUT"...to join the palace bureaucracy…” MOSES Was trained to be pharaoh (B).
To join the bureaucracy indicates he was not a part of it. As the son of Pharaoh's daughter Moses was a head of it from the moment he was adopted. Not really comparable-stretching reality to increase comparison numbers AKA padding the count.
Proof reality check... poor

7 SENMUT"...now took the calculated decision to link his future totally with that of Hatshepsut." MOSES His only link to the royal court was via his stepmother, the princess who adopted him (B).
A calculated desision is far different than acceptence of an adopted mother.
Proof reality check... poor

8 SENMUT"...he was a close personal friend to the royal family." MOSES He was adopted by the royal family (B).
i can't believe you accept this LOL a close personal friend is far different than being a member of the family be it by adoption or birth.
Proof reality check... poor

9 SENMUT "...most typically holding the infant Nefure in his arms." MOSES According to the hypothesis of this book (The Exodus Case) the statues shows Nefure holding Moses in her arms. [Editors note: Not the other way around. Also, it seems quite clear that the person holding the infant reveals the features of that of a female, not a male]
Nefure's mother is known to have dressed as a male in her lifetime... there is no reason why Nefure dressed by her mother wouldn't be on occassions as male as well. Senmut's so called female appearence is related to his hair style favored through Egyptian history by none royal scribes. Confusing the issue.
Proof reality check... poor

10 SENMUT "...sitting with Nefure...held at right angles in his lap, a position hitherto reserved for women nursing children." MOSES According to the hypothesis of this book (The Exodus Case) it was Nefure holding Moses, according to Egyptian customs.
Ancient Egyptian Royal children often had male nurses... Amenhotep III had Heqarneheh, and Sobekhotep as male nurses. Then there is the like statue of Senmut's contemporary, Senimen - who for some time was regarded to be a brother of Senenmut - has erected a comparable statue above his tomb, TT252, which shows him with Neferu-Ra on his lap and together with his mother, Seniemyah, standing beside him. A hyptohesis is just a question and this one is failing. For a picture of this statue google a search on Senimen, tomb TT252.
Proof reality check... fail. Deduct 1 from count total.

11 SENMUT "Effectively, Senmut was ruler of Egypt". MOSES He was to become the ruler and was, before his escape, co-ruler (B).
No where in scripture is Moses considered a ruler of Egypt. As a recongized member of the royal house through his adoption by Pharaoh's daughter he is naturally over the mere citizens and slave of Egyptian society. To claim more for him, is adding to scripture. As for Senmut effectively being a ruler of Egypt... not even his tombs claim such an exalted position.
Proof reality check... poor

12 SENMUT "The discovery of the shared tomb of Ramose and Hatnofer, Senmut's parents, confirms that Senmut was not of particulary high birth." MOSES Moses parents were slaves (B)
See line one, this is the same... padding the count is all this is. It does not change observation of line one. It does prove that Ramose and Hatnofer held position of Egyptian citizens by their titles of Honorable, and Lady of the House. Slaves held neither citizenship or titles used by members of the population.
Proof reality check... poor... padding the count deduct 2 from count total.

13 SENMUT "Ramose and Hanofer...did not play a prominent role in public life." MOSES Moses' parents was not public people in Egypt (B).
The differences in their status as citizens vs slaves allowed for a greater role in the lives of Senmut's parents life.
Proof reality check... poor

14 SENMUT"Nor is there any evidence to suggest that Senmut ever married..." MOSES Moses was not married during his time in Egypt (B, J).
Oh, come now it isn't fair to use Josephus when it suits the hyptohesis and not use it when it doesn't Josephus credits Moses as marrying an Ethiopian princess in his days in Ethiopia. Are we hunting, pecking, slicing and dicing when needed?
Proof reality check ... poor Borders on hunting and pecking for count padding.

15 SENMUT"...remain single, he must have been oddity, one of the few..." MOSES He married first when he arrived to Midian (B).
Again using Josephus when it suits the purpose isn't fair.
Proof reality check... poor Count padding more or less the same as above... Deduct 3 from count total.

16 SENMUT "...evidence that Senmut's immediate family had been struck by sudden catastrophe." MOSES
Not known. But could definitely be a possibility when Moses escaped from Egypt.
Senmut's father died at about sixty... was reburied in new tomb created during Senmut's days in power and some years before Senmut's mother died. While Senmut was in power his 3 brothers all have decent positions as do his two sisters, atleast one brother outlives him. No evidence of sudden catastrophe. Moses family might have suffered sudden catastrophe? His brother Aaron, and Marium are alive after Moses' return from 40 years of exile.
Proof reality check... poor No comparison... padding the count. Deduct 4 from count total.

17 SENMUT"...badly damaged fragment includes the words 'capture' and 'Nubia', is positioned next to images of running soldiers" MOSES He was general and organized war campaigns in Nubia (Ethiopia) and he led his army to victory(J) [ Editors note: There is a staggering relationship here that should jolt the senses of anyone who is sincere and honest] Again use of Josephus as it fits hyptohesis- reworded from line 5.
Proof reality check... poor Padding the count, deduct 5 from count total.

18 SENMUT Senmut is busy in the palace and related to Nefure and Hatshepsut "dating to the period before Hatshepsut's accession" MOSES Moses grew up in the palace (B), adopted by the princess (Nefure) that later became queen Hatshepsut.
Rewording of lines 6 and 7 only now Senmut is related to Nefure and Hatshepsut.
Proof reality check...fail Count padding deduct 6 from count total.


19 SENMUT "...indicating that Senmut was in royal service during the reign of Thutmosis I..." MOSES
Not known from the Bible, but this is according to the Hypothesis of this book (The Exodus Case). [Editors note: Amazing!]
What is indicating that Senmut was in royal service during the reign of Thutmosis I?
Proof reality check... fail Unclear what is being indicated, and how it relates to Moses of scritpure. Count padding deduct 7 from count total.

20 SENMUT "...Senmut's shrine omits the customary earthly and funerary feasts and includes instead a depiction of Hatshepsut being embraced by the crocodile-headed god..." MOSES Moses' origin was that he was found in the Nile river (B), where the crocodiles were found. Hatshepsut was probably the childless women that found Moses in the river. Therefore she was in a symbolic way blessed by the god(s) related to the Nile River. [ Editors note: Ah yes, the dots are connecting so nicely. There is most certainly a connection between Hatshepsut and Nefure, and Senmut and Moses afterall]
I am without a clue... confusing the picture... here Hatshepsut is just probably the childless woman that found Moses. As for the crocodile headed god embracing Hatshepsut he is known as Sobek the protector of Pharaoh and of the gods. See http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/sobek.htm The only relation between Sobek and the Nile is that it is the home of crocodiles however it is Hapi that is the god that represents the Nile River.
Proof reality check... fail Lack of understanding of Egyptian gods padding the count deduct 8 from total count.

21 SENMUT "Senmut was instantly stripped of all his privileges and disappeared in mystery
circumstances." MOSES Moses' had to escape from Egypt due to his mistake to kill an Egyptian (B). He disappeared to Midian and lost everything he had in Egypt in a few days(B) [ Editors note: This is absolutely astonishing. This is EXACTLY what happens to Moses when he flees for Midian. One day the world will know the truth of these dynasties, and the so called “big-wigs” of Egyptian chronology will see that they manipulated dates to fit their own preconceived ideas]
Please document the instantly stripping of Senmut's privileges and mystery circumstances. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black! In other words it is my understanding that orthodox Egyptianologists don't agree with author's slicing and dicing of Egyptian history. Nice reminder... Not pertinent.
Proof reality check... fail. Insubstantiated claim, count padding deduct 9 from total count.

22 SENMUT "His unused tombs were desecrated" MOSES His tombs were unused since he died in todays Jordan (B). His tombs would definitely be desecrated due to his escape, or betrayal of Egyptian court (B).
"The decoration was never completed and work on the tomb was obviously stopped rather suddenly. Only the faces had been destroyed in all representations, Senenmut's name as well as the name of Hatshepsut were preserved. Dates with month and day still visible on the walls - however without giving the year - show how long the work in the tomb was executed." See http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/person ... n_t353.htm. His tomb TT71 is in far worst shape but there is nothing that indicates the destruction was done during or just after his death. It could have happened years, decades, centuries after his death. The above link has a link to website of this tomb. As for Moses having tombs... there is nothing in scripture that he had one let alone more than one. A speculation used to pad count comparision.
Proof reality check... fail. Count padding deduct 10 from total count.

23 SENMUT "...his monuments were vandalized and his reliefs and statues were defaced in a determined attempted to erase both the name and memory of Senmut from the history of Egypt." MOSES Would be expected due to his betrayal of the Egyptian court (B). The memory of Moses in Egyptian has been lost.
Speculation on Senmut, rewording of line 22.
Proof reality check... fail. Count padding deduct 11 from total count.

24 SENMUT "At least twenty-five hard stone statues of Senmut have survived the ravages of time. This is an extraordinarily large number of statues for a private individual..." MOSES He was heir to the throne, not a private individual (B).
Well, now we have 25 hard stones statues of Senmut many viewable that escaped defacement noted in line 23 umm twekking facts. None of these Senumt statues claim he is either Moses or an heir to the throne.
Proof reality check... fair. Uses facts that are denied in line 23.

25 SENMUT"...we must assume that most, if not all, were the gift of the queen..." MOSES The princess (who later was queen) was the stepmother of Moses (B).
Gifts from royalty to favored servants are not unusal. As a member of the royal house, Moses didn't really need to be gifted.
Proof reality check... poor.

26 SENMUT "An intimate relationship with the queen would account for the rapid rise in Senmut’s fortunes…”
MOSES Intimate in terms of mother - son relation (B) (several hypotheses suggests that their relation was as lovers).
A rewording of lines 6, 7, and 18.
Proof reality check... fail. Rewording of previous statements. Padding the count deduct 12 from count total.


27 SENMUT"...being near to the gods was purely a royal prerogative..." (a remark of confusion) MOSES He was a part of the royal family B).
Not pertinent.
Proof reality check... fail. Padding the count deduct 13 from count total.

28 SENMUT "...Hereditary Prince..." (a remark of confusion) MOSES Yes (B).
Okay, i am confused what is this supposed to mean. Lacks clearity in meaning.
Proof reality check...fail. Padding the count deduct 14 from count total.

29 SENMUT “What is surprising is that Senmut was able to acquire any form of hard stone sarcophagus." (only for royalties) MOSES He was part of the royal family (B). It was to be expected.
See Lord's Weni's Funerary Stela and his gifts of hard stone for his sarcophagus. Not unsual in Egyptian history for such gifts to favored servants of Pharaoh. Lack of understanding of Egyptian history. In prior statements what is expected for Moses here as a part of the royal family, has been called a gift from his adopted mother.
Proof reality check... fail. Gifts for servants finds historical presedents. Deduct 15 count total.

30 SENMUT "Senmut's tomb was substantially complete when all building work ceased" MOSES Moses escaped the country (B) and betrayed the Egyptian royal court. [ Editors note: Why would Egypt want to finish Moses’ tomb after he became such a despised individual? He fled to Midian, and therefore the Egyptians assumed he may never return]
See above listed website to visit the tombs of Senmut and decide for yourself. Rewording of line 22.
Proof reality check... fail. Padding the count rewording of line 22 deduct 16 from total count.

31 SENMUT "...tomb 71 suffered a great deal of damage." "...other damage appears to have been entirely deliberate..." MOSES Moses escaped the country (B) and betrayed the Egyptian royal court. To destroy tombs and other objects related to Moses could be expected.
Rewording of lines 22 and 30. Offers as proof material not in evidence such as to when tomb was "desecrated".
Proof reality check... fail. Padding the count rewording of lines 22 and 30. Deduct 17 from count total.

32 SENMUT "The historical record is tantalizing silent over the matter of Senmut's death." MOSES The Egyptian historians did not want to know what happened to Moses, and they had no idea what was going on (B).
It is also tantalizing silent over the deaths of Amenhotep III, of Queen Tiy, of Akhenaten, Nefertiti, of Senuseret I, II, III, of Amenemhet II, III, Ramesses I, II of Merenptah and of Sequenenre Ta'o II.
Proof reality check... fail Not pertinent deduct 18 from count total.

33 SENMUT "What could have happened to him? The enigma of Senmut's sudden disappearance is which has teased egyptologists for decades..." MOSES It is most likely that what the book of Exodus is focused on. The life of Moses (B). [ Editors note: Amazing. And this same scenario of puzzling questions is going to happen time and time again until Egyptologists finally decide to get their act together and take the Bible more seriously]
Not pertinent no comparsion.
Proof reality check...fail Not pertinent deduct 19 from count total.

34 SENMUT "Many of Senmut's monuments were attacked following his death, when an attempt was made to delete his memory by erasing both his name and his image." MOSES Moses has disappeared from the history of Egypt. [ Editors note: An undeniable correlation here! This answers many of our questions, if only we will let it.]
Another rewording of line 22, 23, 31, 32, 33.
Proof reality check...fail. Rewording of previous lines. Padding the count deduct 20 from count total.

35 SENMUT "Each of these descriptions has been based on four surviving ink sketches of Senmut's face."
"...high-bridge nose..." "...aquiline nose..." MOSES Moses was adopted, but genetically he was a hebrew (B). Hebrews are in many cases characterized as having an “aquiline nose" which was not a character of Egyptians.
Umm, racist at the least. Folks with aquiline noses must be Hebrews because in Egyptian art "Hebrews are in many cases characterized with having an "aquiline nose." Not pertinent there is no surviving pictures of Senmut naming him as Moses.
Proof reality check... fail. Racist implications. Padding the count deduct 21 from count total.

In summary; all these 35 comments on Senmut fits Moses very well! [ Editors note: You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT, deny this overwhelming evidence.


The above proofs of similarity between Senmut and Moses is in my humble opinion a failure. Out of your 35 proofs i deduct 21 for the above listed reasons many are simply repetations of earlier proofs obvisous count padding or they simply do not correlate. This leaves 14 points and of them i consider only 1 as being fair, in its correlation... the rest i consider poor.

Now to the name Senmut being the Egyptian name for Moses...because it means "mother's brother". The Bible states... "She brought him to Pharaoh's daughter and he became her son. And she named him Moses, and said. "Because I drew him out of the water." Exodus 3:10 She named him Moses not Senmut (mother's brother)!
Again i must question whether or not your source reads his Bible? Do you?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:44 pm 
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Tis your choice Sekhmet, tis your choice. I'm not going to argue, but I don't see a failure....I see a message getting through to the world.

I could argue your points, but I'm warn out...trying to deal with 5 or 6 forums at the same time and like 2 massive topics in each one at the same time can wear out a guy....

Perhaps I need to start limiting my memberships...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:46 pm 
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She called him "Moses", but don't forget that Egyptian individuals had MANY names.

Does that mean that the inscriptions recorded the name "Moses"? Moses had many names, and in Egyptian language, Senmut was one of Moses' names.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:50 pm 
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Oh, and not to brag, I do read my Bible. I even know the who 10 commandments by heart...and even the whole Isaiah chapter 53 (though I have forgotten some of it lately).

I also know all the books of the Bible by heart except I tend to get a little rusty once in a while with the last few books in the New Testament.

This morning, when I woke up, I read the whole chapter of John 17 as a morning devotion.

I am in no way saying that I know my Bible, so you better listen to me. I am a guilty sinner, and have not studied near as I ought to. There is always room for improvement.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:42 pm 
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Lysimachus wrote:
"Senmut...sitting with Nefure...held at right angles in his lap, a position hitherto reserved for women nursing children."


Yo, Lysimachus you're such a busy young man :) i thought you might like to see the picture of Senmut's friend (the one experts thought was his brother) Senimen sitting with Nefure held at right angles in his lap:) :)
from the website: http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/german/persone ... enimen.htm


Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:34 am 
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Is Senimen actually Senmut's brother though?


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Biblically speaking
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:22 pm 
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Thought you guy's might find this interesting:

www.biblehistory.net/Chap15.ht...

contrary wise: Speculation verse's fact's here at kingtutone


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:28 pm 
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PharoahKel wrote:
Is Senimen actually Senmut's brother though?


No PharoahKel he isn't. Senemut the more correct spelling of Senmut. His brother's names are Min-hotep, Min-hotep, Pairi, their sisters were Ah-hotep, and Nofret-hor.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:57 am 
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Ahh, thank ya


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:49 am 
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Sekhmet wrote:
PharoahKel wrote:
Is Senimen actually Senmut's brother though?


No PharoahKel he isn't. Senemut the more correct spelling of Senmut. His brother's names are Min-hotep, Min-hotep, Pairi, their sisters were Ah-hotep, and Nofret-hor.


OOPS :roll: i made a mistake! It does happen :) Senemut didn't have two brothers named Min-hotep, just one. The first Min-hopet should have been Amenemhet. i am sorry about the mistake.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:10 am 
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Lysimachus wrote:
Take note of the color coded boxes. Yellow meaning the Pharaoh ruling in thebes, while the coregent (Thutmosis') ruled in Memphis. Was a large empire, and so this is how it was done. When Amenhotep passed off the scene, the heir as well as coregent assumed his new title from Thutmosis to Amenhotep. Later on, when chaos struck Egypt because of the Exodus, and Moses proved that the Egyptian gods are false, the dynasty deviated from the usual pattern (names) after Amenhotep III, so that is why the "Thutmosis/Amenhotep" syndrome died away...


Hi again Lysimachus,
I found this in relation to your "Thutmose, Amenhotep syndrome". You believe that the Pharaoh ruling from Memphis was a co-regent and named Thutmose, while the elder and senior Pharaoh was ruling from Thebes by the name of Amenhotep. You further believe that the junior Pharaoh Thutmose, upon succeeding to the senior postion changed his name to Amenhotep and moved to Thebes to rule. Right?

Well, according to Joann Fletcher in her book, Chronicle of a Pharaoh, The Intimate Life of Amenhotep III pg.128 states.
"At the end of his third decade as king, Amenhotep moved his court permanently to Thebes, where he had built "the palace of the dazzling Aten." The palace stood on the Theban West Back below the western hills where the sun set each evening, and directly opposite the king's temple of Luzor. Amenhotep's move to Thebes was in direct contrast wtih the behaviour of previous pharaohs, who had based themselves at the traditional capital of Menphis and had only come south to Thebes for the annual religious festivals, setting up temporary court in palace building attached to Karnak temple."

Not only do you not give solid evidence that the mothers listed as King's mothers are inncorrect. You provide no answer to my question about the tombs of the 18th dynasty Thutmoses and Amenhoteps in the King's Valley. And you support an identification of a commoner as Moses with very poor support. Your theory of the importance of Memphis vs Thebes appears to be as poor as your other arguments. Umm i don't like to say it but it looks like your theory is no more valid than many others that attempt to rewrite Egyptian history. i am sorry.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:12 am 
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Lysimachus wrote:
Concerning 1st Kings 6:1 (not 2nd Kings as you keep stating ;) ), you keep bringing up Judges 2 and telling me that it conflicts with 1st Kings 6:1. Not only do I not add up the years you mentioned in Judges 2, this date is confirmed by Judges 11:26, which states that 300 years elapsed from the time of the Israelite entry into Canaan to the time of Jephthah, who judged Israel in the second half of the 12th century B.C.E. So it is evident that 1st Kings 6:1 is supported elsewhere.


According to my Bible, Lysimachus Judges 11:26 reads, "While Israel lived in Heshbon and its villages, and in all the cities that are on the banks of the Arnon three hundred years, why did you not recover them within that time?" Please explain to me how this translates in to your reading of it?
I regret my consistant typo on 1st Kings 6:1 my notes have been corrected thank you.

Lysimachus wrote:
They were shepherds and had no possibility of defending themselves. Not least the biblical texts indicate that their position was weak and led them to become slaves, which shows how weak they were as a warrior people (Ex. 1-14).



My Bible states this about the Hebrews in Egypt prior to the Oppression Exodus 1:9 "Behold, the people of the sons of Isreael are more and mightier than we"
Exodus 1:10 "... and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those that hate us and fight against us and depart for the land."

Please explain how your Bible indicates they were weak and not strong as my Bible says. I am using NASB by the way.

Again
FYI the Lord Weni of the 6th dynasty found out just how peaceful those that lived in the Goshen and Southern Canaan area were... it took him 5 campaigns to enslave them. They weren't real peaceful in his time.
PS and that is just his campaigns we don't know just how many others were mounted in the same period.

Lysimachus wrote:
You may know your Bible, but that doesn’t mean you have the discernment to properly interpret it. I know people who have read the Bible 5 or more times over, and can quote verse after verse, but they don’t have a hair of spirituality on them. {/quote]

Thankfully young man you are in no position to know my scriptural understanding, Christ judges not you for your information.

Lysimachus wrote:
This was a labeling by the Egyptians – “they were a weak people at that time” (so it appeared) .


So you prefer to use Egyptian sources, to believe them over what is written in scripture? i do not.

Lysimachus wrote:
Those verses indicating their “might”, “great number”, and may “fight against us” are simply due to the fact that years had passed, and these “shepherds” have grown in number. The original term seemed to apply, but does equating a particular name of meaning necessarily negate the possibility of change in context in strength with these people? Not in the least.


Especially when Egyptian sources support your theory far better then scripture does. Right!

Lysimachus wrote:
It baffles me how you cannot think of this on your own Sekhmet. I trusted you were more intelligent than that. You are twisting scripture without weighing the circumstances, and seem incapable of correctly harmonizing verses. And for your information, I do read my Bible. I have even lectured and given Bible studies at my college to other students – which were quite amazed.


As an elder in my Lord, all i can say is He who is humble is of the Lord, and He says to beware false teachers. And i do. Talk about discernment, you do not even know to whom you speak. So you, judge me as a twister of scripture, fine, Lysimachus. My Lord says, as you shall judge so shall you be judged. Remember Lysimachus pride goeth before the fall. Thankfully you have the excuse of youth, and He is merciful.


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