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Re: Ramses II as the Greatest Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:25 pm 
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[quote="Akhenaten"]Actually, I think that Akhenaten should be the greatest Pharaoh. Have you ever realized how brave you would have to be to do that much to change everybody's veiwpoints on religion and art? Yes, Ramses II DID build lots of minuments and stuff, but he was a lair. He changed the account of what happened at the battle of Kadesh. He didn;t win the war, he forged a peace alliance with the king of the Hittites. Would you admire someone who lies to his people?

-Akhenaten- 8)[/quote]
Akhenaten is given too much credit for the actions during the Amarna period. The first mention of Aton is from the reign of his father, Amenhotep III. In fact, most of the conception that Akhenaten put forth was from his father.
I believe, contrary to popular belief, that there was a co-regency between Alkhenaten and his father, and Akhenaten did not move the court to Aketaten or change his name until his father died, and he ruled alone. Only then did he start the userpation and oppresion of the other religions in favor of the Aton, and even then the main focus of his anger was Amen, which may have been a political move--the priests of Amen were getting too much control of riches and estates, becoming a threat to the Pharaoh.
Popular belief of Akhenaten gives him too much credit--as the first monothestis, as the author of the Hymn to Aton, as a faithful and loving husband--all of these things are under doubt!
And Rameses II didn't lie to his people--he just blew up his own role in the warfare, and was critical of that of his army. His great achievment has to be the signing of the peace treaty.


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Re: Ramses II as the Greatest Pharaoh
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:26 pm 
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[quote="Akhenaten"]Actually, I think that Akhenaten should be the greatest Pharaoh. Have you ever realized how brave you would have to be to do that much to change everybody's veiwpoints on religion and art? Yes, Ramses II DID build lots of minuments and stuff, but he was a lair. He changed the account of what happened at the battle of Kadesh. He didn;t win the war, he forged a peace alliance with the king of the Hittites. Would you admire someone who lies to his people?

-Akhenaten- 8)[/quote]
Akhenaten is given too much credit for the actions during the Amarna period. The first mention of Aton is from the reign of his father, Amenhotep III. In fact, most of the conception that Akhenaten put forth was from his father.
I believe, contrary to popular belief, that there was a co-regency between Alkhenaten and his father, and Akhenaten did not move the court to Aketaten or change his name until his father died, and he ruled alone. Only then did he start the userpation and oppresion of the other religions in favor of the Aton, and even then the main focus of his anger was Amen, which may have been a political move--the priests of Amen were getting too much control of riches and estates, becoming a threat to the Pharaoh.
Popular belief of Akhenaten gives him too much credit--as the first monothestis, as the author of the Hymn to Aton, as a faithful and loving husband--all of these things are under doubt!
And Rameses II didn't lie to his people--he just blew up his own role in the warfare, and was critical of that of his army. His great achievment has to be the signing of the peace treaty.


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 7:24 am 
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Wait, I thought Akhenaten was Amenhotep III


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:19 am 
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[quote="PharoahKel"]Wait, I thought Akhenaten [b]was[/b] Amenhotep III[/quote]

No, Akhenaten was Amenhotep IV--it was his father that was Amenhotep III.


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Re: Ramses II as the Greatest Pharaoh
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 11:31 am 
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Akhenaten wrote:
Yes, Ramses II DID build lots of minuments and stuff, but he was a lair. He changed the account of what happened at the battle of Kadesh. He didn;t win the war, he forged a peace alliance with the king of the Hittites. Would you admire someone who lies to his people?


Orisis II wrote:
Akhenaten is given too much credit for the actions during the Amarna period. The first mention of Aton is from the reign of his father, Amenhotep III. In fact, most of the conception that Akhenaten put forth was from his father.
I agree mostly with your statements here Orisis II. However, the first mention of the Aten, and elevation of the Aten is credited to Tuthmosis IV the father of Amenhotep III please see KMT A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt, Volume 13, Number 2 Summer 2002, pgs 41-51.
Orisis II wrote:
I believe, contrary to popular belief, that there was a co-regency between Alkhenaten and his father, and Akhenaten did not move the court to Aketaten or change his name until his father died, and he ruled alone. Only then did he start the userpation and oppresion of the other religions in favor of the Aton, and even then the main focus of his anger was Amen, which may have been a political move--the priests of Amen were getting too much control of riches and estates, becoming a threat to the Pharaoh.
Popular belief of Akhenaten gives him too much credit--as the first monothestis, as the author of the Hymn to Aton, as a faithful and loving husband--all of these things are under doubt!
And Rameses II didn't lie to his people--he just blew up his own role in the warfare, and was critical of that of his army. His great achievment has to be the signing of the peace treaty.


i agree with the concept of the long co-regency Akhenaten Orisis II. The main reason is that Akhenaten's long praised religious revolution wasn't what the experts first thought. It was in fact a long process that Akhenaten brought only to it's fullest and fatal expression.

It isn't so much anymore a popular belief that AKhenaten was a loving husband. It is now acknowledged that he had a harem and at least one secondary wife, the Lady Kiya.

I don't agree with the experts in their put downs of Ramesses II at the battle of Qaddesh. While he did let a small amount of Egyptian terroritory that Tuthmosis III had won for Egypt go to the Hittites. He got the Hittite woman added to his harem. In ancient times the winner always got the girl if not the land. Even there Ramesses II got secured rights of Egyptian interests in traditional Canaanite and Palestinian areas while the Hittites didn't. He lost not a single traditional Egyptian possession, only some recent ones with suspect loyalites to boot!

Picture for a minute, the thousands of Hittites charioteers bearing down upon a small Egyptian encampment, a very royal looking encampment. Suddenly, a figure regal, proud, very royaly dressed is charging them like a God from that little encampment. Outnumbered forces don't normally charge. They run! Then with the Hittites in chaos because a God was charging them, an army appears to assist him. Oh yes, i believe Ramesses completely. You are aware that in later years the entire royal family of Hittite came to visit Ramesses II in Egypt. Yes, i know they were visiting their daughter the Egyptian Queen. LOL

Welcome to the board Orisis II. You have some good knowledge :) Nice


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 5:50 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
PharoahKel wrote:
Wait, I thought Akhenaten was Amenhotep III


No, Akhenaten was Amenhotep IV--it was his father that was Amenhotep III.

Ahhh... thanks!


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Aten/Aton
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:09 pm 
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Sekhmet has said:

I agree mostly with your statements here Orisis II. However, the first mention of the Aten, and elevation of the Aten is credited to Tuthmosis IV the father of Amenhotep III please see KMT A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt, Volume 13, Number 2 Summer 2002, pgs 41-51.

In this book I am now reading, "The Amarna Age: Egypt" by Frederick Giles, states that the SAten is even mentioned on prayers from the 4th Dynasty. That doesn't really surprise me--the Pharoahs of the first five dynasties concentraited heavily on the worship of the sun--especially in his incarnation of the morning sun, and the concept of Ra. Look at the names--MenenkhRA, KafRA and others. The sun and all of its aspected has been a religious symbol for different civilizations throughout the ages.
I think the article in KMT, while correct, didn't explore the incidence of the mention of the Aten/Aton far enough.


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Re: Aten/Aton
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:17 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
Sekhmet has said:

I agree mostly with your statements here Orisis II. However, the first mention of the Aten, and elevation of the Aten is credited to Tuthmosis IV the father of Amenhotep III please see KMT A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt, Volume 13, Number 2 Summer 2002, pgs 41-51.

In this book I am now reading, "The Amarna Age: Egypt" by Frederick Giles, states that the SAten is even mentioned on prayers from the 4th Dynasty. That doesn't really surprise me--the Pharoahs of the first five dynasties concentraited heavily on the worship of the sun--especially in his incarnation of the morning sun, and the concept of Ra. Look at the names--MenenkhRA, KafRA and others. The sun and all of its aspected has been a religious symbol for different civilizations throughout the ages.
I think the article in KMT, while correct, didn't explore the incidence of the mention of the Aten/Aton far enough.


Excuse me Orisis II, but you first brought up the Aten in relation to Amenhotep III. I brought the KMT article in because it correctly places the interest of the Aten of the 18th Dynasty to Tuthmosis IV, not his son Amenhotep III. Why did you go off on to the 4th Dynasty?


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2004 7:41 am 
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Sekhmet previously stated:
Excuse me Orisis II, but you first brought up the Aten in relation to Amenhotep III. I brought the KMT article in because it correctly places the interest of the Aten of the 18th Dynasty to Tuthmosis IV, not his son Amenhotep III. Why did you go off on to the 4th Dynasty?

Although the main focus of the Aten became apparent in the reign of Thotmose IV, the idea of Solar worship first appeared in the 4th Dynasy--I was merely trying to show that beginning. You cannot seriously think that the idea of the Aten just appeared, perhaps as a vision? It was just a look back at the past from the 18th Dynasty--what worked then, would work now attitude on the part of the later Pharaohs. I was merely trying to show that connection.
_________________


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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 12:40 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
Sekhmet previously stated:
Excuse me Orisis II, but you first brought up the Aten in relation to Amenhotep III. I brought the KMT article in because it correctly places the interest of the Aten of the 18th Dynasty to Tuthmosis IV, not his son Amenhotep III. Why did you go off on to the 4th Dynasty?

Although the main focus of the Aten became apparent in the reign of Thotmose IV, the idea of Solar worship first appeared in the 4th Dynasy--I was merely trying to show that beginning. You cannot seriously think that the idea of the Aten just appeared, perhaps as a vision? It was just a look back at the past from the 18th Dynasty--what worked then, would work now attitude on the part of the later Pharaohs. I was merely trying to show that connection.
_________________


Thank you for your explanation of why after introducing the subject of the Aten into the reign of Amenhotep III. You suddenly retrograde back into the 4th Dynasty. Now if you will be so kind as to explain where i mentioned Tuthmosis IV's dream or that i believe that to be it was the first appearence of the Aten in Egyptian solar worship i would appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 9:53 am 
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Sekhmet has stated:
Now if you will be so kind as to explain where i mentioned Tuthmosis IV's dream or that i believe that to be it was the first appearence of the Aten in Egyptian solar worship i would appreciate it.


I think you'd better check the postings, Sekhmet. I do not recall EVER stating anything about Thotmose's dream. But you DID state the above, and also a previous reference to Thotmose IV, saying that you believed, and it seemed to be verified by KMT, that worship of the Aten could be traced to him.
Don't be so quick to make statments that you have no way of verifying.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:28 am 
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Here you go Osiris II where you do make mention of Tuthmosis IV dream... You did. i did not.
Osiris II wrote:
You cannot seriously think that the idea of the Aten just appeared, perhaps as a vision?

Again Osiris II i do not, why did you bring it up?
Osiris II wrote:
I think you'd better check the postings, Sekhmet. I do not recall EVER stating anything about Thotmose's dream.
Don't be so quick to make statments that you have no way of verifying.

I have checked the postings Osiris, why don't you...
Nor am i quick to make statments that i can not verify...
as perhaps you can see.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:07 pm 
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Sekhmet, this is foolish.
Please do not respond to any of my postings, and I agree not to use yours.
As far as I am concerned, you do not exists.
Your repeated errors, your misleading statements, your continual contradictions of yourself, all show a lack of cohesivness.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:18 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
Sekhmet, this is foolish.
Please do not respond to any of my postings, and I agree not to use yours.
As far as I am concerned, you do not exists.
Your repeated errors, your misleading statements, your continual contradictions of yourself, all show a lack of cohesivness.


LOL Osiris II thankfully sir you are not God, i do exist.
It isn't me... you're looking at in your mirror. Sour grapes and poor sports dot this planet Earth, ... and words will never hurt me.
Your leave me alone you.... would have been better placed in a PM as i have asked you to do so. Okay you didn't so the board will be the final judge sir. i am sorry you feel as you do about me. i don't feel that way about you poor soul.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:06 pm 
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[quote="Sekhmet"][quote="Osiris II"]Sekhmet, this is foolish.
Please do not respond to any of my postings, and I agree not to use yours.
As far as I am concerned, you do not exists.
Your repeated errors, your misleading statements, your continual contradictions of yourself, all show a lack of cohesivness.[/quote]

LOL Osiris II thankfully sir you are not God, i do exist.
It isn't me... you're looking at in your mirror. Sour grapes and poor sports dot this planet Earth, ... and words will never hurt me.
Your leave me alone you.... would have been better placed in a PM as i have asked you to do so. Okay you didn't so the board will be the final judge sir. i am sorry you feel as you do about me. i don't feel that way about you poor soul.

Check your pm's. You have been so quick to say that this discussion should be on pm's--but obviously, you do not check yours. I've sent you two, and have yet to receive a reply.


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