Hi again Zampeada, what an interesting post! Thanks. It does not surprise me that an Hyksos King might have Jacob's name. Not at all for the following reasons okay.

I place Jacob back into the 2nd Dynasty, i place Moses in the 6th Dynasty, the Exodus at the end of the Early Bronze Age when Canaan, Palestine suffered terrible destruction of most of its ancient cities. Now, the Bible is clear that from the first day of conquest of Canaan, not all the original peoples were defeated or fled from the Jews. But remained and some even married into Jewish families. So for a Canaanite King of Egypt to have the name of Jacob to me at least isn't a difficult thing to accept.

The Bible is also clear that Jacob while he ruled his family, he never ruled Egypt, that fell to his son Joseph.

Sorry it took me so long to respond, i have had computer problems.

How interesting Osiris II so the lost tribes that offered cattle, and doves to God in ancient Israel. Come to the Americas and offer up the beating hearts of captured enemies so as to ensure that the Sun continues to shine. Sorry if i don't agree. As for Christ teaching in S. A. he may have but he certainly didn't dent the natives love, respect for their mummified ancestors now did he. LOL

I wasn't writting about the lost tribes of Israel in the post but the missing Canaanites that the Conquest must have displaced. So your discourse on the lost tribes leaves me wondering are you one of those believers that the Israelites were just another group of Canaanites?

[quote="Sekhmet"][quote="Osiris II"]Sekhmet wrote:
there is one aspect of the of the Conquest of Canaan by the Israelites that no one ever mentions that bothers me. That is what happens to the displaced Canaanites?
It's perfectly clear to the LDS--Mormons--Sekhmet. I'm originally from Utah, my family were all Mormon (I am not) and they believe that the 10 "Lost" Tribes took a boat and went to the Southern Americas, where they established the Mayan and Aztec civilizations.
And during Jesus' unknown years, he was bringing the word to South America![/quote]

How interesting Osiris II so the lost tribes that offered cattle, and doves to God in ancient Israel. Come to the Americas and offer up the beating hearts of captured enemies so as to ensure that the Sun continues to shine. Sorry if i don't agree. As for Christ teaching in S. A. he may have but he certainly didn't dent the natives love, respect for their mummified ancestors now did he. LOL

I wasn't writting about the lost tribes of Israel in the post but the missing Canaanites that the Conquest must have displaced. So your discourse on the lost tribes leaves me wondering are you one of those believers that the Israelites were just another group of Canaanites?

I didn't say that I believed it, Sekhmet. I only stated that which I was told in Utah.
I know that the beating hearts...etc. According to LDS scripture, that occured when the people lost God's direction and reverted to paganism. Again, this is LDS belief, not my own.
As for the Isealites being Canaanites--no, I don't believe they were. Neither do I believe that they were God's "chosen" people, who left Egypt in a Holy Migration, entered and conquered a land that they were given by God, and became rulers of that land and its people. In my opinion, most of the happenings listed in the Bible were, at best, distortions of what really happened. The Egyptians were noted for their writing down of everything that occured. If plagues sent be God, if the death of all first-born children occured or if there was an exodus of a huge amount of people that were servants or slaves--such things would have been written by the Egyptian somewhere--carved on walls, mentioned in papyrus--even scribbled on ostrica by some scribe. But nothing is mentioned. I think we have to take a serious look at scriptures that list these things, and re-evaluate them, using present knowledge. By re-evalute, I do not mean dismiss or ignore, but use our minds to think of real occurences, not what is stated in scripture as absolute because it is directly from God.

All i have to say is i don't care what your religious beliefs are...nor did i infer that they were your beliefs. IF YOU READ MY POST AT ALL. i am well aware of Mormon beliefs thank you.
As for your contention that there is nothing written in Ancient Egyptian annuals well you like so many scholars are simply wrong ... It is the adherence to a Christian Chronology that makes you, them so simply wrong. That chronology is based upon the best science available in 500 AD and 1650 AD. The continued use of it only shows that modern scholarship supports the
current Biblical minimalist view and this is wrong.

The Merenptah Stela is the best example of the inability of modern scholars to seperate themselves from an archaic timeline based on poor science. Their use of Shoshenq I as Shishak is another example. Their use of 2nd Kings 6:1 which is in disagreement with Judges 2:18 a third example of modern scholars inability to seperate themselves from a poor archaic timeline in order to use the science of archaeology. Which is available to them and not Jerome of the 5th century AD or to Bishop Ussher of 1650 AD. One might even go so far as to say the Bible isn't being given half a chance as its chronology is based upon archaic Christian Chronology and not Biblical statements.

If your looking for certain happenings in the wrong time period you'er going to get nothing. Kind of like trying to find Joseph Smith in 1640 instead of his proper time. In doing that, one might believe that Joseph Smith never existed either. That belief would be wrong simply because you were looking into the wrong time period.

You are of course most welcome to any belief that thrills your inner man. As i am, and my information jives with reality i will thankyou to respect my own beliefs. I would furthermore appreciate it if you would read my posts a bit more carefully and stop adding to them. Thank you in advance.

yup, i agree with you. Jacob never ruled egypt (based on Bible text), even Joseph only a second command to Pharaoh (if i'm not mistaken).

i'm trying to understand your hypothesis that Moses might have live in 6th dynasty, perhaps which pharaoh.

Hi again and no you are not mistaken Joseph ruled as 2nd in command under Pharaoh.

It is P. Blosser-Lotfinia's belief that Moses lived under the Pharaoh Pepy I of the 6th Dynasty. He was the 2nd Pharaoh of this Dynasty. Pharaoh Weni (5th Dynasty) and Pharaoh Teti (6th Dynasty) were Pharaohs not of the same bloodline as the earlier Pharaohs of the 4th, and 5th Dynasty. Which would agree with the Bible statement that a new Pharaoh arose that did not know Joseph.

Towards the end of Pharaoh Teti, a young noble by the name of Weny began his rise to power. His funerary stela which as been discovered, and translated reads like an Egyptian verision of the Exodus story of the Oppression of the Hebrew people. On his stela he reports his leading of 5 seperate campaigns against the Asians, on one campaign he evens go so far as Mt. Carmel (it is believed to be) in Canaan. Archaeology shows that towards the end of the 5th Dynasty Asians are being showed as prisoners a first since the 1st Dynasty i add. This is just part one of Lord Weny's stela it continues.

Pharaoh Pepy I came to the throne a son of Teti and as a young boy. He ruled some 50 years, towards the end of his life he calls on Lord Weny to hear a secret trial against his Queen and wife Weretiyames. She is bandished as a result of this trial. This trial is included on Lord Weny's stela. Pepy I afterwards marries two daughters of a Baron Khuni, these daughters provide Pepy with his successors.

Lord Weny dies during the reign of Pepy's first son who ruled barely 9 years. The final part of Lord Weny's stela records the very oppressive labor that is employed by Lord Weny on command of Pharaoh to secure funeral stone works from quarries. Most scholars laugh at the amount of work that is recorded by Lord Weny as impossible to have been done. It most likely is unless it is relative to the time of Hebrew oppression as recorded in the Bible.

Pepy II succeeded his older brother as a very young child whose mother and uncle Dadu ruled at first as Co-Regents for young Pepy II. Pepy II rules for a unknown period of time Manetho credits him with a rule of 94 years. While archaeology can only discover a rule of 67 years. It is at the end of Pepy II's reign that Egypt falls into proverty, ruin, and depopulation of the Delta area. It isn't long after this time that the Pyprus of Ipuwer is written. It isn't long after the end of Pepy II's reign that we find the cities of Canaan and Palestine being destroyed.

Archaeology has provided proof that Pepy I was a big supporter of the Goddess Hathor. This agrees with the Bible mention of Pharaoh's interest in childbirth.
Archaeology has provided us with the area that Pepy I and his sons used as their funerary towns, within 5km of the future Pi-Rameses area.

The story of Queen Weretiyames gives us the adopted mother of Moses. The only other known Queen to be placed on trial was a minor Queen of Ramesse III. She faced excution after a public trial, whereas Weretiyames was bandished after a secret trial. Scholars consider that this was another case of harem scandel. It must have been an extremely huge scandel for Pharaoh to have held a secret trial judged only by a minor offical (Weny) and not the offical court judge. P. Blosser-Lotfinia considers that the crime of saving and raising as son of Pharaoh, a condemned Hebrew child would fit such a senerio. Since it differs so much from the trial of Ramesse minor Queen.

Then there is the history of the rest of the ancient world at this time. About the same time Pharaoh Weni came to the throne. Sargon the Great began his rise in power and established the first Semitic Empire in Mesopotamia. Having related Semitics in Egypt would cause any insecure Pharaoh such as Weni, Teti, and Pepy I to fear for their newly achieved throne. Which harkens loudly the Biblical statements that Pharaoh started his oppression of Hebrews because they may grown to numereous in Egypt.
Archaeology also indicates that Egypt during the 6th Dynasty also made expeditions in to Nubia where those myths that claim Moses lead Egyptian forces into Nubia also find agreements.

Please do a search for Lord Weny's Funerary Stela on the web. The search engine Google provides excellent sites on which to read it. Another way to spell Weny is Weni. Read for yourself what this ancient Egyptian Lord had to say about his years of service to Pharaoh. If we accept that what he says is true... the oppression of Asians, warefare and labor, the exile of a Queen of Egypt. (He is swearing that these are the things he did in life before his gods after all) We can find all these things in Exodus and at the end of Exodus. The exodus that leaves Egypt broken, and in ruins just as what happens at the end of the 6th Dynasty.

yup i've read something about Pepy II and some believed him to be the Pharaoh of Moses.

i'm really interested with the Queen name you have mentioned. In islamic tradition there was a Pharaoh's wife who was executed because of not prostrate of the Pharaoh's claim as God. Although not named in Koran, some belief she was Asiah... hence the name was in Arabic, I though it might be Isetnofret I, Ramses II's second principal wife. She was lost beyond record in 34th year of Ramses reign and her tomb was never found. Beside that, I never found much of her...

I think the Queen you have mentioned might have matched something that I'm looking for... even if the name not much match.

Sekhmet has stated:
It is the adherence to a Christian Chronology that makes you, them so simply wrong. That chronology is based upon the best science available in 500 AD and 1650 AD. The continued use of it only shows that modern scholarship supports the
current Biblical minimalist view and this is wrong.

This is sooooo typical of people who try to prove their point with any reference that may POSSIBLY show their claim to be justified.
I'm sure, with your superior knowledge, you are very aware of LDS--NOT Mormon--doctrine. I have not question that, and will not do so. Everyone is intitled to their own opinion and beliefs--as long as those opinions aren't broadcast to the public as the only truth. Obviously, you believe firmly in what the Bible says--that is your right. Statements such as the above show your bigotry, and even with the best intentions, bigotry is wrong.
Please give me a posted reference that shows that Christian Minimalist thinking is wrong--I don't believe any qualified reference exists--only vague statements that prove your point--which is just typical of your type of thought-process.

you seems to dislike him very much.

It's not a personal dislike. I just object strongly to people who "preach" to others, and become very irritated when I am accused of saying things I did not say.
My humble apologise to all the members of this board--I will try to do a better job of controlling my anger.

You want a qualified reference that supports my statement that Biblical Minimalists are not only wrong but using corrupt... yes i said corrupt data. Well here are 3.

The Bible Unearthed, Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Siblerman is that it uses the Shoshenq I as Shishak page 18.

Taken from Pharaohs and Kings A Biblical Quest by David Rohl, Crown Publishing 1995. Champollion was wrong in his reading of the Shoshenq I's campainge. It wasn't Jerusalem but the place of the Kings Hand. pg. 122

Shoshenq does not easily translate into Shishak. pg 128.

Karol Mysliwiec in The Twilight of Ancient Egypt, First Millennium BCE, Cornell University Press, english translation David Lorton, 2000. pg 45 makes it abundantly clear that Shoshenq I wasn't Shishak.

You rant and rave about my "preaching" i do not preach i am not a preacher. i am a SERIOUS student of Ancient History. Greatly distrubed that inconsistancies between ancient neighboring peoples histories can't be solved by those experts who have been educated to do so.

I regret that you believe i am "preaching" when in reality Osiris II i am simply presenting a new theory with substantical sources backing it. You are something of a newbie here... i have been posting along these lines for sometime. The above named references are from my other posts related to this topic. I believe they are quiet qualified. It they don't met with your approveal please let me know.

There is not a single Biblical Minimalist that does not use Shoshenq I as Shishak... that i am aware of anyway... if you know of one please post it so i can read it myself.

If one takes a good look at the timeline (chronology) that is used by Biblical minimalists one can see that they are in fact using the Christian chronology that was first defined by Sextus Julius Africanus c. 220 AD, altered but basically confirmed by Jerome c. 400 AD. Jerome's work was later confirmed by Martin Luther, and then codified with minor changes by Bishop James Ussher in 1650 AD. Biblical minimalist will not drop the Christian chronology that allows gross distortions to Biblical history which is really just a history book of the Jewish people.

There is an ever growing awareness that the Bible is rather reliable from the period of Assyrian aggression against the nations of Egypt's traditional sphere of influence in Canaan, and Palestine. But before the mention of Assyria experts can't find anything that supports Biblical statements. Let us get away from religious terms and use THE JEWISH HISTORY BOOK.

Why is this? One reason given and swallowed by most is that it was all a made up tale written while the Jews were captives in Babylon.
Another reason might be... the chronology used by the experts is so far off. That no one in their right mind can find any supportive evidence that the History book of the Jews is based upon history and not myth.

Not a single expert has investigated the possibility that it is the chronology they use and not the Bible that is wrong! In the field of Biblical Archaeology like Dr. Rohl writes there are certain Pillars... Shoshenq I is Shishak and

While i welcome you attempts to make sure i do know of what i am talking about i do not appreciate in the least your personal, and it is personal attacks. You believe i believe in the Bible... well guess what Osiris II. It is a history book to me and i do believe it in that context, i study it not to become closer to God but to find clues as to assist me in finding out the truth about the history of a certain group of people. If you have read my posts the Biblical passages are all from the Old Testament and they relate to historical statements not salvation. So i find your accusations bewildering and mighty off based. Nor am i a Christian, let alone a fundie and would not encourage anyone on that path.

That i have an understanding of the differences between the many religions that dot this planet earth is due to my respect of my fellow human beings, and that my life and education, thankfully is beyond Comparative Religions 101. Nor do i find the differences hateful, fearful, or wrong... they add diversity to the life that God created. You know Osiris II i believe the bigot is yourself... make a mold and those that don't fit it beat into the mold so we all end up as identical thinking dummies! No thank you, sir. On behalf of the board i accept your apology. Thank you! Remember Osiris II you can always berate me in PM and save yourself further public apologies to the board.

Perhaps you can tell me are you scared that by throwing out a flawed archaci timeline, that verification of much of the Jewish History Book might become easier... even possible. Therefore proving what that God exists... He existed, exists for most without any knowledge of the Jewish History Book. Proving the historical reliability of the Jewish History Book only proves that history between neighboring peoples should
agree more than disagree. Proving also that people live and make history, they don't invent it!

Okay Zampeada, because i have researched this topic with some of the best books in the field. Do you want to know why Pepy II is discounted by the vast majority of scholars as the Pharaoh of the Exodus? There are 2 reasons would you like to know them, and how to face these problems and make them disappear? If so let me know

As for Isetnofret I, it is the fate Zampeada, of being the 2nd wife and not the first. But really even the life of the Great Wife Nefertari isn't really all that well known. Isetnofret I, son Merenptah succeeded to the throne of his father, his Great Wife is believed to be a daughter of Isetnofret as well. In the new book i am reading The Amarna Diplomacy, Chapter Two deals with the relations between principles and secondaries within the family of that ancient time. If i am reading it right if Isetnofret I, had done such a thing, her children would have suffered right along with their mother. I believe she died, women died young in those days because of constant childbearing. If she "disappears" around year 34 of her husband. To whom she had been married nearly as long, if not longer even, and gave him many children during those years... i and many others consider it a side effect of bearing so many children in the Bronze Age.

Asiah, pretty name Zampeada. She might be Weretiyames, she lived so far back in time it would be hard to say. If Lord Weni had not broken the secret of her for his funerary stela no one would have known about her period. If any Queen of Egypt refused to accept her Pharaoh's claim of divinity i do believe it would be the Queen that raised Moses. However, i do believe that Lord Weni claims she was bandished and not excuted. I will have to check my notes to be sure.

Well, i checked my notes according to Nicolas Grimal, A History of Ancient Egypt, she was bandished. However the man in the real know Lord Weni makes no statement as to the what happened to the Queen. So your Islamic sources might be correct. You use the Koran spelling, myself i prefer the Qu'ran if you do not mind? See this is just part of what my research has shown over the years... experts make additions, ride off on wild tangets. 'Tis always best to read the real source.

I don't know if you have read Lord Weni's text but here are two well done sites on it. Always try to get at least two versions whenever possible, translations are very open to the translaters view points. With at least two
you can see how ancient texts might be read. Oh yes and use the mind you were given! I hope you enjoy them

www1.hollins.edu/Docs/academics/divisioni/classical%20studies/ saloweyca/clas%20260/weni.html
members.tripod.com/~ib205/weni.html

yup i've read it. to be honest i'm not sure if 'Asiah' was ever mention in Quran. but she was known in Islam tradition... who considered to be one of the four greatest women in Islam.

one thing that was basically accepted about Asiah, she had no children of her own. hence why she adopted Moses.

what do you think sekhmet?

According to my sources, Grimal, Redford, Oxford and others... Pepy I came to the throne a rather young boy. He would have been married to a senior princess (Weretiyames) who might have been some years older than he. I can see a "daughter of Pharaoh" married to a boy with no heirs possible for some time adopting a child such as Moses.

Zampeada, i have come across a few online Qu'rans i would think that they would have word search capabilities. That might allow you to see if Asiah is in the Qu'ran. Perhaps you might like to try that out.