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In your opinion, is Joanne Fletcher's mummy REALLY Nefertiti?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:57 pm 
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Ankhesenamun3 is right about the testing done on the mummy of the "Elder Lady" of KV 35.

What isn't well known is how the hair was found in the coffinette with the name of Tiye. This is explain best in an article by Dr. Susan E. James, in KMT A Modern Joural of Ancient Egypt Volume 12, Number 2, Summer 2001. Titled "Who is Mummy Elder Lady?". In this article Dr. James explains that the cache of coffinettes wasn't originally designed as a set, but put together sometime later prior to being finally placed in Tutankhamun's tomb. The inner most coffinette is the one that has both the name and the hair.

Dr. James makes the best case possible that it is the Elder Lady, that is Nefertiti not Queen Tiye, in part due to her explaination of the origin of the hair in the coffinette of Tiye. The article also provides graphic comparisons of the mummy's profile with the Berlin Bust of Nefertiti that is so comparable. That you are looking at a scuplted bust next to a mummy doesn't really strike one.

The article sold me, the Elder Lady isn't Tiye it is Nefertiti. Ankhesenamun3 notes that in a skull comparasion done between the Elder Lady (the correct title for the mummy) and the mummy of Lady Tuya is close signifing a family relationship. Nefertiti is normally considered to be Lady Tuya's granddaughter and if true would account for the comparable shape of the skull.

I highly recommend all interested in this discussion to read the article.

What isn't well known is that there are 2 other late 18th Dynasty unidentified royal lady mummies still to be indentified. One found in the large cache of royal mummies that included the Thutmosis' and Ramesses' males. The other was found in the tomb of Queen Hapshephut's nurse. Either of these royal ladies could be Queens Tiye and possibly Ankhesenamun, herself. Although some experts believe the one found in Hapshephut's nurse's tomb to be that of Pharaonic Hapshephut herself.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:12 am 
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The mummy is clearly Tiy. If it were just the hair or the shull measurements there might be some doubt. The hair match, the skull measurments and the blood grouping tests all show Tiye as likely. I see no reason at this point to question that unless something new comes up. A consensus is slowly forming around this identification not with standing those who would like to sell books and TV shows.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:25 am 
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Horemheb wrote:
The mummy is clearly Tiy. If it were just the hair or the shull measurements there might be some doubt. The hair match, the skull measurments and the blood grouping tests all show Tiye as likely. I see no reason at this point to question that unless something new comes up. A consensus is slowly forming around this identification not with standing those who would like to sell books and TV shows.


Hi again Horemheb, you want something new... is 2001 new enough for you? i offer sources for your consideration you offer your opinion. Sorry i prefer the expert sources available to all out there that want to know.To get to the new stuff you have to read the old first. The Tiye identification of Elder Lady has never been totally accepted as you imply. Almost from the start there have been real objections to it.

So, let us ask the experts. Akhenaten, King of Egypt by Cyril Aldred pgs 104, 105. "The Elder Lady B, number 61070, recently has been identified as Queen Tiye, but this conclusion has since been challenged."(this identification was established by the skull measurements, and hair by the Alexandria-Michigan venture.) Continuing with Dr. Aldred's statements. "Recently, however objections against these findings of the Alexandria-Michigan team have been raised by Dr. Renate Germer on serveral grounds, including what she regards as defective methodology. THe age of the mummy number 61070 at death is against its identification as Queen Tiye. The blood group of the mummy shows that while in theory it could be a daughter of Yuya and Tuyu this is not very probable. Further, the process of identifying family relationships on the basis of skull measurements is considered too uncertian for any proper conclusion to emerge. Lastly the hair analysis provides no proof that the mummy is Tiye. Until further investigations have confirmed its identity beyond conjecture the verdict, in the words of the Scots Law, will have to remain not proven."

The Alexandria-Michigan team work took place back in the early 70's. While the science used has improved greatly since then, The Elder Lady mummy number 61070 has not been retested.

Let us ask another expert. Dr. Susan E. James, from the above referred to article from KMT A Modern Joural of Ancient Egypt Volume 12, Number 2, Summer 2001. Titled "Who is Mummy Elder Lady?" pages 42-50. From pg. 44, "Therefore in any reading of known events Tiye would have been over 40 years old at her death.... James Harris and Edward Wente made the determination from several physical delimiters (including toothwear, and loss, epiphyiseal union, pubic symphycis, etc) that the overall age at death for Elder Lady is between 25 and 35 years with 29.2 years as the average. This does not conform to the historically determined age range of Queen Tiye."
From pgs 46-47 "Two points of reference on the facial features of Mummy 61070 the chin and the philtrum offer additional clues to her identity. Elder Lady's jaw line is distinctively square and broad across the mandible essentially the same configuration consistently depicted in the scuplted heads of Neferitit. Tiye's chin in 3D sculpted images on the other hand is rounded and distinctly more pointed than Nefertiti. The second significant reference point on the faces is the philtrum, that small grooved or depression which runs from the nose to the bow of the upper lip. In the Elder Lady the philtrum is quite pronounced as it is on the various sculpted heads of Nefertiti. Tiye's philtrum, contrarily is so faint that it is barely noticable. Visually all the busts of Nefertiti which originated in the workshop of the sculptor Djehutymes at Akhetaten compare very favorably with the configuration of the face of the Elder Lady including facial feathures, skull shape,and hyperelongated neck. The bone structure apparent in the painted limestone bust of the queen in Berlin and that of the Elder Lady appear all but identical- any discrepancies being due to the differences between sculpted stone and desiccated flesh on bone. The full mouth, square jaw, narrow nose, wide set eyes, grooved philtrum, high cheekbones broad forehead, and the lenght of the neck match each other point for point."

It is a very convincing article added with the beautiful pictures of both Elder Lady and the Neferiti bust it can settle the question for someone looking for the real Nefertiti. She is found. When i first read the article i just sat stareing at the Queen that has been an influence in my life. Knocking myself in the head. Goin' why hadn't i seen it before? I showed it around to my friends not a one of them rejected the conclusions of Dr. James either. Perhaps you have to see the article, that is why i keep referring it to folks.

You may be able to order your own copy of the magazine from the KMT or perhaps Kmt (they changed their title style this year) website. If i had to save, beg, give up a fancy birthday present i would get this magazine if i was a real Nefertiti freak.

Kmt can be a very expensive quarterly magazine to buy, however you can stop at any bookstore that carries it and read for free. I would recommend this for the present and future issues. It is truly a beautiful magazine and well worth the effort to get one's Egyptianphile hands on. It contains a section of what is happening in Egypt, in studies in Egyptian history, and important lectures from around the world.


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Nefertiti
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 8:57 am 
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Here's another one to add to the unasked and unanswerable questions.
In the book I am currently reading, "The Amarna Age: Egypt" by Frederick Giles, he states that we do not actually know if the famous bust IS Nefertiti. There is nothing that gives a positive identification of the bust--it could possibly be Kiya or Meritaton.
I don't agree, but it makes interesting reading. The whole book is full of mind-blowing information. I heartily recommend it to everyone.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 1:53 pm 
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The bust resembiles the Nefertiti who is standing next to her husband Akhenaten in the pictures of the family.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:00 am 
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[quote="Ankhesenamun3"]The bust resembiles the Nefertiti who is standing next to her husband Akhenaten in the pictures of the family.[/quote]

It also looks a lot like Meritaton, and who knows what Kiya looked like. But I do agree. The bust looks very much like all the other art work we have of Nefertiti. But it is true that there is nothing to positivally identify the bust--other that it was found in the workshop of an artist who produced works for the royal family.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 4:12 pm 
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There are some pictures carved in Hermopolis that are believed to show Kiya.


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:15 pm 
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Hmmm.... Interesting...


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The Ederly Woman
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 2:32 pm 
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All of this discussion is quite pointless if, and it's a large IF, the news recently released by Dr. Hawass is true. A recent DNA study of the "Elderly Woman" says that she is a...man!
The report is on the net, was authorized by the SCA, given to Hawass who released it to the public.
I don't have the address any longer--perhaps a search can be done on Google to find it.


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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 5:04 pm 
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I was wondering how positive the DNA testings are on the gender of a mummy?


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Gender identification
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 10:59 am 
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[quote="Ankhesenamun3"]I was wondering how positive the DNA testings are on the gender of a mummy?
The DNA testing of the mummy used a form of that testing called the PCR test, which is considered to be 100% accurate for gender results. The test showed that the "Y" chromosone was there, which only occurs in males.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 12:51 pm 
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:) Interesting,So it can not be Nefertiti or Meriaten.


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DNA testing
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 2:32 pm 
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Well, it seems to really throw a monkey-wrench into all the debate! Still, I'm very--questioning?--about the report. It just seems to be too convienient, in the midst of the big hub-bub over Fletcher's statements. There is no mention of it on Hawass' site, nor in data provided by the SCA site. According to the tale, it was authorized by SCA, the results were given to them, and they turned it over to Hawass. It looks real, though--judge for yourself:
www.cbc.ca/disclosure/archives/040113_n ... a_test.pdf


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:26 pm 
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:? It looks real but it seems like another Egyptian site would show this DNA test too.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:44 am 
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[quote="Ankhesenamun3"]:? It looks real but it seems like another Egyptian site would show this DNA test too.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? After all, in the Egyprological world, this is very big news.
I'm afraid it's just a reaction--or, rather, an over-reaction--on the part of the SCA and Hawass to put Fletcher completely in the wrong. According to the SCA rules, she violated accepted procedures, and has been publically chastised. But methinks it sounds an awfully lot like a pouty, spoiled child's reaction.
I don't know where we could get the truth of the matter. As I said before, Hawass doesn't mention it on his web-site, and neither does the SCA--what option is left? I've tried a search on Google--nothing.


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