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Kings and Proverb's
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:26 pm 
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An Image from Genesis
After Hatshepsut had returned from her Punt voyage, she gathered together all her nobles and proclaimed before them the great things she had done in the behest of her father Amon-Ra. It is at the conclusion of this speech to her nobles that we encounter a scriptural image when she says, `I have made for Amon-Ra a Punt in his garden at Thebes ... it is big enough for him to walk about in'. This is a phrase which reminds us of the book of Genesis and God walking in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the evening.

An Image from the Psalms
We find other utterances of Hatshepsut which remind us of the Psalms. On her commemorative obelisks she wrote:
`I did it under Amon-Ra's command; it was he who led me. I conceived no works without his doings ... I slept not because of his temple; I erred not from that which he commanded ... I entered into the affairs of his heart. I turned not my back on the City of the All-Lord; but turned to it the face. I know that Karnak is God's dwelling upon earth; ... the Place of his Heart; Which wears his beauty ...' We compare this with the words of David's Psalms.
'Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed; I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids. Until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob - For the Lord has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever; here will I dwell; for I have desired it.'Psalm 132:1-5, 13, 14.

An Image from the Proverbs
In another, related verse of the Punt reliefs, referring to Amon-Ra's leading of the expedition to `the Myrrh-terraces ... a glorious region of God's Land, the god speaks of his creating of the fabled Land of Punt in playful terms that remind us of the words that Solomon wrote about Wisdom's role in the work of Creation: `I, Wisdom ... was with [the Creator], forming all things, and was His delight every day, playing before Him at all times, playing on the surface of His earth, delighting to be with the sons of men' (Proverbs 8:12, 30-31) In the Egyptian version there is also reference to Hathor, the goddess of wisdom:

`... it is indeed a place of delight. I have made it for myself, in order to divert my heart, together with ... Hathor ... mistress of Punt .../

Interestingly, the original roles of the goddesses Hathor and Isis, in the prestigious Heliopolitan 'theology', were ones very similar to those of Moses' sister and mother, respectively (the god Horus reminding of Moses).

`Isis hid Horus in the marshes of the Delta ... with the help of the goddess Hathor, the wet-nurse in the form of a cow. The child grew up ...'. Compare this with the action of Moses's mother and sister: `[Moses's mother] put the child in [the basket] and placed it among the reeds at the river's brink. And his sister stood at a distance .... Then his sister said to Pharaoh's daughter, 'Shall I go and call you a nurse from the Hebrew women to nurse the child for you?' ... And the child grew ...' (Exodus: 2:3-4,7,10)


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Re: Ramses II and Merenptah
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 12:00 pm 
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zampeada wrote:
I believe at the time of Ramses II Moses was born... then Moses run away... on his refuge, Ramses II died, ascended Merenptah...

Moses return as a prophet and saviour to his people... Merenptah was angry then and pursue Moses and his followers, eventually drown in the sea.


I am sorry Zampeada. Why? Because the Victory Stela of Merenptah dating to his 8th year of rule. Proclaims his victory over the Prince of Israel (third stanza). Now, if Moses lead his people on the Exodus during his reign, and he died chasing them? How could he defeat a prince of Israel prior to his 8th year?

After the Exodus Israel didn't have a prince for at least 420 years according to 2nd Kings 6:1.
The Victory Stela of Merenptah is the first attested non-Biblical source mentioning Israel.


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Re: Kings and Proverb's
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 12:11 pm 
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Hey Bel, thanks for the sources and quotes! They are a big help to my research! Thanks again!


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Most welcome
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 7:51 pm 
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Indeed!


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:30 am 
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Have you read 'Secrets of the Exodus' by Messod and Roger Sabbah
Translated by Art and Louis Bantaby ? Supposed to be a serious work but the authors are convinced that Ay was Abraham and Ramses I was Moses but it's an interesting slant on the Exodus. Also if you read 'The Lost Testement' by David Rohl, the pioneer of the new chronology, he actually puts forward a possible name for the actuall pharaoh of the exodus but he is quick to say it is just a guess based on available evidence.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:17 am 
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Kiya wrote:
Have you read 'Secrets of the Exodus' by Messod and Roger Sabbah
Translated by Art and Louis Bantaby ? Supposed to be a serious work but the authors are convinced that Ay was Abraham and Ramses I was Moses but it's an interesting slant on the Exodus. Also if you read 'The Lost Testement' by David Rohl, the pioneer of the new chronology, he actually puts forward a possible name for the actuall pharaoh of the exodus but he is quick to say it is just a guess based on available evidence.


Hi Kiya, I haven't read either book myself. As for Ay being Abraham and Ramses I as Moses. That basicly leaves out Jacob and Joseph period. Nor do i accept it, period.
Would you happen to have the Pharaoh's name according to Dr. Rohl, the last i am aware of is his preference for Dhutmoses of the 13th Dynasty. I don't care for Dr. Rohl's, New Chronology because he wants to rearrange Egyptian Chronology to support his total work. It isn't needed, all one has to do is to take a good look at Christian Chronology to see that it is based upon the limited knowledge of the Early Christian Church which was in flux against pagan thought. Egyptian and Babylonian history at the time claimed a history of some 10,000 years. While Christian and Jewish writers could only find 5,500 years from OT Scripture.
What is most exciting is that archaeology, today is providing enough facts regarding Egyptian and Babylonian history to push it back almost to 10,000 years!
Right now i am reading Time Immemorial Archaic History and Its Sources In Christian Chronology From Julius Africanus to Syncellus, by William Adler. It is rather eye opening in how it presents the fight between Christian and Pagan works during the founding of Christianity. It is no wonder, that Christian Chronology is so far off from archaeological findings.

Again thanks to Patricia Blosser-Lotfinia for her work Biblical Chronology, What is wrong with it and how to fix it.


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Re: Ramses II and Merenptah
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:19 am 
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Sekhmet wrote:
zampeada wrote:
I believe at the time of Ramses II Moses was born... then Moses run away... on his refuge, Ramses II died, ascended Merenptah...

Moses return as a prophet and saviour to his people... Merenptah was angry then and pursue Moses and his followers, eventually drown in the sea.


I am sorry Zampeada. Why? Because the Victory Stela of Merenptah dating to his 8th year of rule. Proclaims his victory over the Prince of Israel (third stanza). Now, if Moses lead his people on the Exodus during his reign, and he died chasing them? How could he defeat a prince of Israel prior to his 8th year?

After the Exodus Israel didn't have a prince for at least 420 years according to 2nd Kings 6:1.
The Victory Stela of Merenptah is the first attested non-Biblical source mentioning Israel.


According to Bucaille,

In the text of the famous stele dating from the fifth year of Merneptah's reign critics think they have found an objection to the theory set out here, in which the pursuit of the Jews constituted the last act of his reign.

The stele is of great interest because it represents the only known document in hieroglyphics which contains the word 'Israel'. [ The word is followed by a generic determinative which leaves no doubt as to the fact that this term signifies a 'human community or group'.] The inscription which dates from the first part of Merneptah's reign was discovered in Thebes in the Pharaoh's Funeral Temple. It refers to a series of victories he won over Egypt's neighbouring states, in particular a victory mentioned at the end of the document over a "devastated Israel which has no more seed . . " From this fact it has been held that the existence of the word 'Israel' implied that the Jews must already have settled in Canaan by the fifth year of Merneptah's reign, and that in consequence, the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt had already taken place.

This objection does not seem tenable because it implies that there could have been no Jews living in Canaan all the while there were Jews in Egypt-a proposition it is impossible to accept. Father de Vaux however, in spite of the fact that he is a supporter of the theory which makes Ramesses II the Pharaoh of the Exodus, notes [ In his book 'The Ancient History of Israel' (Histoire ancienne d'Israël)] the following about the settling of the Jews in Canaan: "In the South, the time when communities related to the Israelites settled in the Kadesh region is unclear and dates from before the Exodus." He therefore allows for the possibility that certain groups may have left Egypt at a time different from that of Moses and his followers. The 'Apiru or Habiru who have sometimes been identified with the Israelites were already in Syria-Palestine long before Ramesses II and the Exodus: we have documentary evidence which proves that Amenophis II brought back 8,600 prisoners to work as forced labourers in Egypt. Others were to be found in Canaan under Sethos I where they caused unrest in the Beth-Shean region: P. Montet reminds us of this in his book Egypt and the Bible (L'Egypte et la Bible). It is quite plausible to suppose therefore that Merneptah was obliged to deal severely with these rebellious elements on his borders while inside them were those who were later to rally around Moses to flee the country. The existence of the stele dating from the fifth year of Merneptah's reign does not in any way detract from the present theory.

Moreover, the fact that the word 'Israel' figures in the history of the Jewish people is totally unconnected with the notion that Moses and his followers settled in Canaan. The origin of the word is as follows:
According to Genesis (32,29), Israel is the second name given to Jacob, son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham. The commentators of the Ecumenical Translation of the Bible-Old Testament (Traduction oecuménique de la Bible-Ancien Testament), 1975, think that its meaning is probably that 'God shows Himself in His Strength'. Since it has been given to a single man, it is not surprising that it was given to a community or group of people in memory of a distinguished ancestor.

The name 'Israel', therefore appeared well before Moses: several hundred years before to be exact. It is not surprising consequently to see it cited in a stele from the reign of the Pharaoh Merneptah. The fact that it is cited does not at all constitute an argument in favour of a theory which dates the Exodus before the fifth year of Merneptah's reign.

What it does do is refer to a group which it calls 'Israel', but Merneptah's stele cannot be alluding to a politically established collectivity because the inscription dates from the end of the Thirteenth century B.C. and the Kingdom of Israel was not formed until the Tenth century B.C. It must therefore refer to a human community of more modest proportions. [ "The name 'Israel' (in the stele) is accompanied by the generic determinative 'people' instead of the determinative 'country', as is the case for the other proper names in the stele" writes Father B. Couroyer, Professor at the Biblical School of Jerusalem, in his commentary to the translation of the Book of Exodus (Pub. Editions du Cerf, Paris, 1968, page 12).]

Nowadays, we know that the entry of 'Israel' into history was preceded by a long formatory period of eight or nine centuries. This period was distinguished by the settling of many semi-Nomadic groups, especially the Amorites and the Arameans all over the region. In the same period, Patriarchs began to appear in their communities among whom were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-Israel. The second name of this last Patriarch was used to designate the original group, the nucleus of a future political entity which was to appear long after Merneptah's reign, since the Kingdom of Israel lasted from 931 or 930 to 721 B.C.


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Re: Ramses II and Merenptah
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 11:43 am 
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Thank you Zampeada, i am very well aware of the scholars understanding of the Victory Stela. You still didn't answer my question as to how Israel could have had a Prince to beg mercy from Merenphat? I enclose a copy of the Stela for your consideration. Only i have edited it so that the final stanza comes first. :)


" The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!"
Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head:
Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace,
Canaan is captive with all woe.
Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,
Yanoam made nonexistent;
Israel is wasted, bare of seed,
Khor is become a widow for Egypt.
All who roamed have been subdued.
By the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat,
Given life like Re every day."

The Victory Stela of Merenptah


Year 5, 3rd month of summer, day 3, under the Majesty of Horus: Mighty Bull, Rejoicing in Maat; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Banere-meramun; the Son of Re: Merneptah, Content with Maat, magnified by the power, exalted by the strength of Horus; strong bull who smites the Nine Bows, whose name is given to eternity forever.

Recital of his victories in all lands, to let all lands together know, to let the glory of his deeds be seen: the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Banere-meramun; the Son of Re: Merneptah, Content with Maat; the Bull, lord of strength who slays his foes, splendid on the field of valour when his attack is made:

Shu who dispelled the cloud that was over Egypt,
letting Egypt see the rays of the sun disk.
Who removed the mountain of copper from the people's neck,
that he might give breath to the imprisoned folk.
Who let Hut-ka-Ptah exult over its foes,
letting Tjenen triumph over his opponents.
Opener of Memphis' gates that were barred,
who allowed the temples to receive their foods.
The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
the Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat.
The Sole One who steadied the hearts of hundred thousands,
breath entered their nostrils at the sight of him.
Who destroyed the land of the Tjemeh in his lifetime,
cast abiding terror in the heart of the Meshwesh.
He turned back the Libyans who trod Egypt,
great is dread of Egypt in their hearts.

Their leading troops were left behind,
Their legs made no stand except to flee,
Their archers abandoned their bows,
The hearts of their runners grew weak as they sped,
They loosened their waterskins, cast them down,
Their packs were untied, thrown away.
The vile chief, the Libyan foe,
Fled in the deep of night alone,
No plume on his head, his feet unshod,
His wives were carried off from his presence,
His food supplies were snatched away,
He had no drinking water to sustain him.
The gaze of his brothers was fierce to slay him,

His officers fought among each other,
Their tents were fired, burnt to ashes,
All his goods were food for the troops.
When he reached his country he was in mourning Those left in his land were loath to receive him
"A chief, ill-fated, evil-plumed",
All said of him, those of his town.
"He is in the power of the gods, the lords of Memphis The Lord of Egypt has made his name accursed;
Merey is the abomination of Memphis,
So is son after son of his kin forever.
Banere-meramun will be after his children,
Merneptah, Content with Maat is given him as fate.
He has become a [proverbial saying] for Libya, Generation says to generation of his victories:
It was never done to us since the time of Re;"
So says every old man speaking to his son.

Woe to Libyans, they have ceased to live
In the good manner of roaming the field;
In a single day their stride was halted
In a single year were the Tjehenu burned!
Seth turned his back upon their chief,
By his word their villages were ruined;
There's no work of carrying [loads] these days.
Hiding is useful, it's safe in the cave.
The great Lord of Egypt, might and strength are his, Who will combat, knowing how he strides?
A witless fool is he who takes him on,
He knows no tomorrow who attacks his border!
As for Egypt, "Since the gods," they say,
"She is the only daughter of Pre;
His son is he who's on the throne of Shu,
None who attacks her people will succeed.
The eye of every god is after her despoiler,
It will make an end of all its foes",
So say they who gaze toward their stars,
And know all their spells by looking to the winds.

A great wonder has occurred for Egypt,
Her attacker was placed captive (in) her hand,
Through the counsels of the godly king,
Who prevailed against his foes before Pre.
Merey who stealthily did evil
To all the gods who are in Memphis,
He was contended with in On,
The Ennead found him guilty of his crimes.
Said the Lord-of-all: "Give the sword to my son,
The right-hearted, kind, gracious Banere-meramun,
Who cared for Memphis, who avenged On,
Who opened the quarters that were barred.
He has freed the many shut up in all districts,
He has given the offerings to the temples,
He has let incense be brought to the gods,
He has let the nobles retain their possessions,
He has let the humble frequent their towns".
Then spoke the lords of On in behalf of their son,
Merneptah, Content with Maat:
"Grant him a lifetime like that of Re,
To avenge those injured by any land;
Egypt has been assigned him as portion,
He owns it forever to protect its people".
Lo, when one dwells in the time of the mighty,
The breath of life comes readily.
The brave bestows wealth on the just,
The cheat cannot retain his plunder;
[What a man has of ill-gotten wealth
Falls to others, not (his) children.]

This (too) shall be said:
Merey the vile foe, the Libyan foe
Had come to attack the walls of Ta-tenen,
Whose lord had made his son arise in his place,
The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat.
Then said Ptah concerning the vile Libyan foe:
"His crimes are all gathered upon his head.
Give him into the hand of Merneptah, Content with Maat,
He shall make him spew what he gorged like a crocodile.
Lo, the swift will catch the swift,
The lord who knows his strength will snare him;
It is Amun who curbs him with his hand,
He will deliver him to his ka in Southern On,
The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat".

Great joy has arisen in Egypt,
Shouts go up from Egypt's towns;
They relate the Libyan victories
Of Merneptah, Content with Maat:
"How beloved is he, the victorious ruler!
How exalted is he, the King among the gods!
How splendid is he, the lord of command!
O how sweet it is to sit and babble!"
One walks free-striding on the road,
For there's no fear in people's hearts;
Fortresses are left to themselves,
Wells are open for the messengers' use.
Bastioned ramparts are becalmed,
Sunlight only wakes the watchmen;
Medjai are stretched out asleep,
Nau and Tekten are in the fields they love.
The cattle of the field are left to roam,
No herdsmen cross the river's flood;
There's no calling out at night:
"Wait, I come," in a stranger's voice.
Going and coming are with song,
People don't [lament] and mourn;
Towns are settled once again,
He who tends his crop will eat it.
Re has turned around to Egypt,
The Son is ordained as her protector,
The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 9:30 pm 
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according to my reading merneptah reign was about 10 years... he may co-regent with his father, which probably make up for 20 years... 10 years prior to his father death, ramses II.

the stela record mernpetah victory over foreign military campaign. obviously, israel people (not a country... perhaps a group) do live outside egypt as article enclosed above.

merneptah pursue Moses and his people... he was 57 at the time... strong enough to do military action... however, his father... ramses II was nearly 100 when he died...

One more... he was drown after the parting sea which also means the end of his reign.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:41 pm 
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zampeada wrote:
according to my reading merneptah reign was about 10 years... he may co-regent with his father, which probably make up for 20 years... 10 years prior to his father death, ramses II.

the stela record mernpetah victory over foreign military campaign. obviously, israel people (not a country... perhaps a group) do live outside egypt as article enclosed above.

merneptah pursue Moses and his people... he was 57 at the time... strong enough to do military action... however, his father... ramses II was nearly 100 when he died...

One more... he was drown after the parting sea which also means the end of his reign.


Again Zampeada, you have not answered my question. Let me try and make it clearer for you :) At the time Pharaoh Merenphat had the Victory Stela inscribed. Who was the Israelite Prince that joined in with the other Canaanite, and Philistine Princes in begging Merenphat for peace?

Please don't give me more of your readings, use your own mind... think for yourself.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:18 am 
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Hi Zampeada, i wanted you to have another reference so i found this for your consideration. Please note two particular things about this article. First the lack of the reference of Israel having a Prince like the others and the last sentence of this article. In all discussions of Merneptap's Stela you will read, unless i am the author :) You will never see mention of Israel's Prince begging for peace along with the others.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm
Institute for Biblical and Scientific Studies
Biblical Archaeology:
Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
Merneptah Stele
One of the most importantdiscoveries that relate to the time of the Exodus is the Merneptah stele which
dates to about 1210 BC. Merneptah, the king of Egypt, boasts that he has destroyed his enemies in
Canaan. He states:Plundered is the Canaan with every evil; Carried off is Ashkelon; seized upon is
Gezer; Yanoam is made as that which does not exist; Israel is laid waste, his seed is not; (ANET 1969,
378 ).The word "Israel" here is written in Egyptian with the determinative for people rather than land (ANET
1969, 378 note 18 ). This implies that Israel did not have a king or kingdom at this time. This would be the time
of the judges. The text also implies that Israel was as strong as the other cities mentioned, and not just a small
tribe. The south to north order of the three city-states may provide a general location for Israel. There is an
interesting place named in Joshua 15:9 and 18:15, "well of waters of Nephtoah," that may be the Hebrew
name of Merneptah. The well which is probably anachronistically named after Merneptah would be near
Jerusalem. The Egyptian Papyrus Anastasi III contains "The Journal of a Frontier Official" which mentions this
well. It says:Year 3, 1st Month of the 3rd Season, Day 17. The Chief of Bowmen of the Wells of Mer-ne-Ptah
Hotep-hir-Maat--life, prosperity, health!--which is (on) the mountain range, arrived for a (judicial)
investigation in the fortress which is in Sile (ANET 1969, 258 ).Yurco has recently re-analyzed the
Karnak battle reliefs, and has concluded that they should be ascribed to Merneptah and not Ramses II
(1990, 21-38). There are four scenes which Yurco correlates with the Merneptah stele. One scene is
the battle against the city of Ashkelon which is specifically named. Yurco argues that the other two city
scenes are Gezer and Yanoam. He concludes that the open country scene must be Israel. Rainey
rejects this view because it shows them with chariots and infantry (1990, 56-60). Lawrence Stager
suggests that the small horses pulling the chariot belong to pharaoh's army as in the Ashkelon scene
(1985, 58 ). Rainey thinks the Shasu are Israelites, but others identify the Shasu as Edomites (Stager
1985, 60). Both scholars Yurco and Rainey agree that these battle scenes are from Merneptah's reign
(Yurco 1991, 61; Rainey 1992, 73-4; Hess 1993, 134). Before the discovery of the Merneptah stele
scholars placed the date of the exodus and entry into Canaan much later. They are now forced to admit
that Israel was already in Canaan at the time of Merneptah. Israel was big and strong enough to
challenge Egypt in battle. This stele puts a terminus ante quem date of 1210 BC for the exodus


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:54 am 
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Sekhmet wrote:
zampeada wrote:
according to my reading merneptah reign was about 10 years... he may co-regent with his father, which probably make up for 20 years... 10 years prior to his father death, ramses II.

the stela record mernpetah victory over foreign military campaign. obviously, israel people (not a country... perhaps a group) do live outside egypt as article enclosed above.

merneptah pursue Moses and his people... he was 57 at the time... strong enough to do military action... however, his father... ramses II was nearly 100 when he died...

One more... he was drown after the parting sea which also means the end of his reign.


Again Zampeada, you have not answered my question. Let me try and make it clearer for you :) At the time Pharaoh Merenphat had the Victory Stela inscribed. Who was the Israelite Prince that joined in with the other Canaanite, and Philistine Princes in begging Merenphat for peace?

Please don't give me more of your readings, use your own mind... think for yourself.


As I described before... Victory Stelae was just a record of Merneptah victory over his foreign military campaign.

The princes are prostrate saying: "Mercy" -- so who's the princes? Not one, eh?

Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head... eh? So there was nine then...

I believed that all of nine (though if counted only 8 named stated), was the Sea People united in attacking egypt... Merneptah won in this battle. Israel... among others... Tjehenu, Canaan... was the aliances.

So where's your point saying that was Moses... anyway? The Stela only talking about how great victory Merneptah Achieved over this nine bows (acher?)

Israilite mention in the stelae just to show that they do lived outside egypt.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:15 am 
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zampeada wrote:
As I described before... Victory Stelae was just a record of Merneptah victory over his foreign military campaign.

The princes are prostrate saying: "Mercy" -- so who's the princes? Not one, eh?

Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head... eh? So there was nine then...

I believed that all of nine (though if counted only 8 named stated), was the Sea People united in attacking egypt... Merneptah won in this battle. Israel... among others... Tjehenu, Canaan... was the aliances.

So where's your point saying that was Moses... anyway? The Stela only talking about how great victory Merneptah Achieved over this nine bows (acher?)


Israilite mention in the stelae just to show that they do lived outside egypt.


My point has nothing to do with Moses, Zampeada. My point is when did Israel have Princes to join with other area Princes in begging Merenphat for mercy. After the formation of the United Monarchy and not before. Why should Merenphat credit a defeated foe as a nation, when he boasts of its seed being no more?
Understand that Merenphat once again the victor over this terroritory. Where the children of Israel had lived as Egyptian chattle for over 500 years since the Exodus. It would have been unmerciful for Merenphat to use a word that meant nation, with regards to Israel, when he boasts of its seed being no more. A seed Zampeada is a very little, new thing as was the kingdom of Israel when Merenphat wiped it out.

Please read 1st Samuel 8: 11-17 please pay particular attention to verse 12. Samuel is describing classic Egyptian military formation. How does he know this because the least, New Kingdom Kings before Merenphat had done that because the terroriotory was overruled by Egypt. With the kingship of Saul, the rights of Egypt's kings would be terminated and Israel's king would take up the Egyptian king's historical rights to the land of Israel.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:41 pm 
Scribe
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Location: Malaysia
it depends on how you take 'prince' literally...

I'll restate back my comment:

To me all of nine bows mentioned was representing several tribes that united in attacking egypt. If Israel was strong enough, or had it own nation... They would certainly attack by themselves...

Israel as a nation? As described in above article... Israel in the stela does not mean 'nation' it was a group of people. Hence the few final lines of the stela... "All who roamed have been subdued"

Hopefully, i didn't overstate my comment... at the end of the day, it is just an opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 12:30 am 
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Location: Rome, Georgia USA
zampeada wrote:
it depends on how you take 'prince' literally...

I'll restate back my comment:

To me all of nine bows mentioned was representing several tribes that united in attacking egypt. If Israel was strong enough, or had it own nation... They would certainly attack by themselves...

Israel as a nation? As described in above article... Israel in the stela does not mean 'nation' it was a group of people. Hence the few final lines of the stela... "All who roamed have been subdued"

Hopefully, i didn't overstate my comment... at the end of the day, it is just an opinion.


I am sorry Zampaeda, at the end of your day perhaps it is just opinion. At the end of my day it is considered research backed by a great deal of reading experts that supply hard facts.

As i said, Merenphat claims to have wiped out the seed of Israel. It would not have been correct for his scribes to use the word nation. Israel had no princes until the United Monarchy, nor does the period of Judges admit to any victories by Egyptians.

While during the reign of Asa of Judah, Zerah King of Cush is invading the terroritory. At about the same time the Israelite royal house, of Jeroboam that first found support in Egypt, is long dead by murder. Israel itself is in civil war. It isn't until the general Omri takes the Israelite throne that peace and a royal Israel agains takes hold. This period fits better with the early to mid 19th Dynasty of Egypt than with any other period in Egyptian history.

Zerah, King of Cush is an interesting statement. Why?
Because according to traditional chronology there is no Cushite Kingdom capable of threating Egypt let alone Judah if Shoshenq I is truly Shishak of the Bible. But then again Shosheng I makes claims to having sacked Jerusalem, although Ramesses II does. Zerah, King of Cush is redacted terminology used to identify an Egyptian King who was campagining in the area. In an attempt to gain points with the redactors overlords the Kings of Assyria as they themselves were fighting the Cushite Pharaohs of a much later time. Zerah has to be either Ramesse II, or his son Merenphat as Ramesse II claims campagining in the Judaen area, ie sacking Jerusalem and his son claims victory over Israel. Zerah i believe is Merenphat still considered Pharaoh over Nubia the area later known as the Kingdom of Cush.


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