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Who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:39 am 
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I've been doing research on the story of Moses and I read studies saying that a certain :?: Pharaoh was the Pharaoh of the Oppression, the Pharaoh of the Exodus, etc. Evidently, this is not too easy. I'm only sure that Ramses II was not the Pharoah of the Exodus. What ideas are out there?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:15 pm 
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Thutmose III was another idea out there


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:24 pm 
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Myron are you familiar with David Rohl's "Pharoah's and King's: A Biblical Quest"? Although highly criticized by Egyptologists and Biblical scholars alike, he offers a New Chronolgy that places Moses and the Exodus in the 13th Dynasty. Whether it is fact or not, it is an intriguing theory.

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/newchrono.html


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:04 pm 
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Neb-Ma'at-Re wrote:
Myron are you familiar with David Rohl's "Pharoah's and King's: A Biblical Quest"? Although highly criticized by Egyptologists and Biblical scholars alike, he offers a New Chronolgy that places Moses and the Exodus in the 13th Dynasty. Whether it is fact or not, it is an intriguing theory.

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/thera/newchrono.html



I am familiar with it Neb-Ma'at-Re, are you aware that Dr. Rohl wants to rearrange a great deal of Egyptian history to place Moses in the 13th Dynasty?
Even then he bases his really different chronology on 1st Kings 6:1 "Now it came about in the four hundred and eightieth year after the ...Exodus... in the 4th year of Solomon's reign." Thereby limiting the time from the Exodus to Solomon to only 480 years.

The problem here, Neb-Ma'at-Re is that it disagrees with Judges 2:18. This verse says "When the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge." But if you go through the numbered years of the judges and those of the listed enemies you get well over 480 years needed. The only way you can get 480 years that 1st Kings 6:1 states is to NOT COUNT the years the sons of Israel was dominated by other nations.

PharaohKel's offer of Pharaoh Thutmosis III, has problems as well. Mainly, because he, in no way, left Egypt as the Bible claims Egypt was left after the Exodus. The other main problem with it, is that it is achieved by using both the problamatic 1Kings 6:1 verse and Shoshenq 1, as Sishak of the Bible. The main problem with this identification is that Shoshenq 1 makes no claim of ever getting near enough to Jerusalem to sack it. (Mysliwiec, Karaol, First Millennium B.C.E. The Twilight of Ancient Egypt, pg 45) If Shoshenq 1 didn't sack Jerusalem, he wasn't Sishak who did sack Jerusalem then the 480 years between Exodus and Shishak can't put you into Thutmosis III reign.

i maintain that with the distortions of Biblical chronology that is common today. Is because it is based upon Sextus Julius Africanus, and Jerome's early Christian Church chronology. It is wrong. When we allow archaeology itself to place Biblical people, events we can successfully place Exodus at the end of the Old Kingdom. When the Old Kingdom collasped it was just as the Bible states, destitute, depopulated, ruined. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:50 am 
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I was also under the impression that Egypt was basically collapsed after the Exodus, is it possible that it was during the Ptolemaic period?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:18 am 
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PharoahKel wrote:
I was also under the impression that Egypt was basically collapsed after the Exodus, is it possible that it was during the Ptolemaic period?


Hi Pharaoh Kel, no sorry it isn't possible for the following reasons.
1) There is the Merneptah Stela which mentions Israel in the late 19th Dynasty.
2) We have the documentation of the Assyrian Kings in their wars against the Jewish Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
3) Modern historical time keeping begins with the reign of the Babylonia King Nebuchadnezzar II (604- 562 BCE). Why because his reign is the most easiest for finding in more modern calendars! Nebuchadnezzar II also ended the Judean Kingdom.
4) Egypt didn't collapse during or at the end of the Ptolemaic period.

I hope this helps Pharaoh Kel. The best placement of the Exodus is to first delete the Biblical timeline that is used and based upon Sextus Julius Africanus and Jerome's work. That was later reworked by Archbishop James Ussher and last altered by supporters of Champollion. When this is done you can allow archaeology to find it and it will be found best at the end of the Old Kingdom.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:18 pm 
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I once read that Akhenaten might have been the pharaoh at the time of moses? :?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:30 pm 
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Some claim that Akehnaten was Moses!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:35 pm 
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Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
I once read that Akhenaten might have been the pharaoh at the time of moses? :?


Yes, he is sometimes mentioned as the Pharaoh of the Exodus. Egypt was pretty bad after his reign granted. But this time period, doesn't really fit the description the Bible gives. There was no mass exodus of people nor was Egypt laid waste, according to archaeology . Had the Exodus taken place during his reign, we would have the conquest of Canaan by Josuha during the reign of Hormeheb. Again, archaeology shows no such destruction of Canaanite cities. Then, there is the question of his father's reign. Amenhotep III while lavish in his contruction projects, shows no signs of abnormal abuse of his construction crews.

The only time frame that fits the Bible is the end of the Early Bronze Age. When we have not just the complete destruction of Egypt along with depopulation. But also have the needed destruction of Canaanite cities that the Bible describes.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:36 pm 
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Neb-Ma'at-Re wrote:
Some claim that Akehnaten was Moses!


This is true too, Neb-Ma'at-Re :) Not hardly though. 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:07 pm 
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Sekhmet wrote:
PharoahKel wrote:
I was also under the impression that Egypt was basically collapsed after the Exodus, is it possible that it was during the Ptolemaic period?


Hi Pharaoh Kel, no sorry it isn't possible for the following reasons.
1) There is the Merneptah Stela which mentions Israel in the late 19th Dynasty.
2) We have the documentation of the Assyrian Kings in their wars against the Jewish Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
3) Modern historical time keeping begins with the reign of the Babylonia King Nebuchadnezzar II (604- 562 BCE). Why because his reign is the most easiest for finding in more modern calendars! Nebuchadnezzar II also ended the Judean Kingdom.
4) Egypt didn't collapse during or at the end of the Ptolemaic period.

I hope this helps Pharaoh Kel. The best placement of the Exodus is to first delete the Biblical timeline that is used and based upon Sextus Julius Africanus and Jerome's work. That was later reworked by Archbishop James Ussher and last altered by supporters of Champollion. When this is done you can allow archaeology to find it and it will be found best at the end of the Old Kingdom.


Thank you, that does help!


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Queen of sheba - Hatshepsut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:27 am 
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The Ethiopian Connection

The Dynasty of Moses and the Queen of Sheba

Unknown to historians, the prophet Moses of the Bible actually sired
a long line of kings which has ruled from the middle of the second mil-
lennium before the present era until this very present age! Here is dy-
namic new understanding of the real origin of the famous Eighteenth
Dynasty of ancient Egypt, and the origin of the long line of kings which
have ruled in Ethiopia until Haile Selassie, the recent Emperor!

William F. Dankenbring


Historians have overlooked an amazing fact which should have been self evident, if they had but understood the right time-frame of Egyptian chronology, and believed the historical record of the Bible, and the Jewish historian Josephus.

In the book of Deuteronomy, God made Moses an amazing promise. After Israel had sinned, and made a golden calf to worship, God was furious. He declared to Moses: "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of THEE a nation MIGHTIER AND GREATER THAN THEY" (Deut. 9:13-14). Moses, however, interceded for the people, and turned away God's wrath from them (verses 18-19, 22-29).

However, prior to Moses leaving Egypt, the Jewish historian Josephus points out that he had been a great general who led Pharaoh's army to victory over the kingdom of Ethiopia, which had conquered most of Egypt. While attacking the Ethiopian capital city, Tharbis, the daughter of the king of Ethiopia, became enamoured of Moses, seeing his valiant exploits, and bargained to deliver the city into his hands if he would but marry her. Moses agreed, and she fulfilled her promise -- and Moses married her, and fulfilled the obligation of a husband to her, causing her to become pregnant (Josephus, Antiquities, II, x). This occurred sometime before 1532 B.C., when Moses was driven out of Egypt for slaying an Egyptian (Exodus 2: 11-150. The vitally important royal city where this conflict culminated was "Saba." Josephus relates:

"...he came upon the Ethiopians before they expected him; and, joining battle with them, he beat them, and deprived them of the hopes they had of success against the Egyptians, and went on in overthrowing their cities, and indeed made a great slaughter of these Ethiopians...the Ethiopians were in danger of being reduced to slavery, and all sorts of destruction; and at length they retired to SABA, which was a royal city of Ethiopia, which Cambyses afterward named MEROE, after the name of his own sister. The place was to be beseiged with very great difficulty, since it was both encompassed by the Nile quite round, and the other rivers..." (Ant., II, X, 2).

The Greek historian Herodotus spoke of Meroe, or Saba, as

"...a great city, the name of which is MEROE. This city is said to be the mother of all Ethiopia" (The History, p.142-143, quoted in The Sign and the Seal, p. 448).

When Egyptian history is properly restored and reconstructed, this event means that Moses' son by Queen Tharbis became the progenitor of a line of Ethiopian kings. When Israel left Egypt in 1492 B.C., the land of Egypt was in a shambles -- utterly destroyed, as the Papyrus Ipuwer states with awesome clarity in describing the plagues which fell upon that land -- including the plague of blood. The papyrus also shows that invaders from the east, the Hyksos, conquered nothern Egypt (lower Egypt) and dominated the region as cruel "shepherd kings" for about 500 years. These "Hyksos" were the Amalekites who fought the children of Israel in Sinai as they left Egypt (Exodus 18). They were not thrown out of Egypt until the reign of king Saul of Israel, who conquered the Amalekites in Arabia (I Samuel 15), and Samuel the prophet slew their king Agag (vs. 32-33).

At this same time, the famous and powerful Eighteenth Dynasty arose in southern Egypt and Ethiopia -- a dynasty of dark-skinned kings and queens! Among the famous kings of this powerful dynasty, which overthrew the Hyksos and conquered northern (lower) Egypt, Immanuel Velikovsky writes in Ages in Chaos:

"The kingdom of Egypt, after regaining independence under AHMOSE, a contemporary of Saul, also achieved grandeur and glory under Amenhotep I, THUTMOSE I, Hatshepsut, and THUTMOSE III. Egypt, devastated and destitute in the centuries under the rule of the Hyksos, rapidly grew in riches" (p. 103).

Notice the strange sounding names of this line of kings from southern Egypt and Ethiopia -- they contain the name of their ancestor, who was none other than the Biblical MOSES! Why would Egyptian kings of the most powerful dynasty that ever ruled Egypt be called by the name of Moses, and be named after Moses? Because this dynasty of kings and queens was descended from Tharbis, who became Queen of Ethiopia, and her husband was none other than MOSES! As Josephus writes, after she delivered up the impregnable city of Saba to Moses,

"No sooner was the agreement made, but it took effect immediately; and when Moses had cut off the Ethiopians, he gave thanks to God, and CONSUMMATED HIS MARRIAGE, and led the Egyptians back to their own land" (Ant., II, x, 2).

Notice! The royal city where this marriage was consummated was "Saba." Saba can be none other than the same as SHEBA! Thus, the Queen of Sheba, whom Josephus says was the Queen of Ethiopia and Egypt, who visited Solomon in 992 B.C., roughly 540 years after Moses married the Ethiopian princess, came from this same royal city of SABA-SHEBA. This means that she was a royal descendant of Moses and Tharbis, the daughter of the king of Ethiopia -- a descendant of MOSES!

God fulfilled his promise to make a powerful dynasty of kings from the loins of Moses.

And in the days of Solomon, the Queen of Sheba -- Hatshepsut, her Egyptian name, or Makeda, her Ethiopian name -- like Tharbis, her ancestor, had a love affair or romance with a Hebrew leader -- King Solomon. Thereby the royal lines of Moses and David became intertwined, and have ruled in the nation of Ethiopia ever since, till Haile Selassie, of our own day!

The very name "Hatshepsut" itself may be indicative of the fact that this famous Queen, who visited the land of Punt, the "Divine Land," and who built a temple on the banks of the Nile at Thebes in upper Egypt patterned after Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, was indeed the Queen of Sheba. "Ha," in Hebrew, means "the." "Sut is a suffix which may relate to royalty. Thus her actual name is "Shep," but nominatives are often interchangeable, and it could be rendered "Sheb," that is, SHEBA -- thus her very name could mean, "The Sheba Queen," or "The Queen of Sheba."

Interestingly, historians know that the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt, its most powerful, was a "colored" dynasty -- that is, Ethiopian or Nubian! On page 105 of his book Ages in Chaos, Velikovsky has a plate showing the visage of Queen Hatshepsut, courtesy of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It is a regal looking statue showing her distinctive Ethiopian features, or a mixture of Ethiopian and Semitic -- but of course, for she was the descendant of Tharbis and Moses!

Was Hatshepsut the same person as the Queen of Sheba, or the Queen of Ethiopia, as Josephus states clearly that the Queen of Sheba was? The Ethiopian name of this Queen, who visited Solomon and had a son by him, was Makeda. Did Hatshepsut have this as her personal name? Velikovsky quotes the Karnak obelisk, in Breasted, Records, vol. II, sec. 325, in its description of the famous Egyptian Queen Hatshepsut:

"Thy name reaches as far as the circuit of heaven, the fame of MAKERE (Hatshepsut) encircles the sea" (Ages in Chaos, p. 105).

Makere is clearly the same name as Makeda, the Ethiopian name for the Queen of Sheba or Saba. The term "Sheba" or "Saba" refers to the name of the famous Ethiopian royal city at the confluence of the Nile and two other Ethiopian rivers, at the upper reaches of the Nile!

The word "Ethiopia" is a Greek word meaning "burnt faces." The Hebrew word Cush, translated as "Ethiopia," was used in Biblical times to refer to "the entire Nile Valley south of Egypt, including Nubia and Abyssinia" (Edward Ullendorff, Ethiopia and the Bible, p. 5, quoted in The Sign and the Seal, p. 450).

The 1955 Revised Constitution of Ethiopia confirms the age-old monarchy's Divine Right to rule. It states:

"The Imperial dignity shall remain perpetually attached to the line of Haile Selassie I, whose line descends without interruption from the dynasty of Menelik I, son of the Queen of Ethiopia, the Queen of Sheba, and King Solomon of Jerusalem..." (ibid., p. 24).

Haile Selassie, the former Emperor of Ethiopia, claimed to be the 225th direct line descendant of Menelik I, the son of the Queen of Sheba or Saba, the royal city and "mother" city of all Ethiopia. Thus her Biblical name, "Queen of Sheba," actually helps to prove her true identity!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:05 pm 
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Interesting...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:29 am 
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I know this! The alien that piloted the ship that built the pyramids


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Re: Queen of sheba - Hatshepsut
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 10:59 am 
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bel wrote:
The Ethiopian Connection


Hey Bel thanks for the information. :)
However, there are a couple of problems with it. First, i am wondering what the date of publication is for your source. If you could supply it for me i would greatly appreciate it. Why? Because your source appears to be using dates no longer used by Egyptianologists.
Your source places the Hyksos invasion about 1495 after Moses leads the Exodus. Today's accepted date for the Hyksos invasion is 1650-1550 BCE,
(Silent Images Women in Pharaonic Egypt by Zahi Hawass, 2002, pg 202); or 1674-1567 BCE ( Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt, by Rosalie David, 1998 pg 10)
Your source also places Hatshepsut of the 18th Dynasty in 992 BCE. While again today the accepted dates of her reign are 1503-1482 BCE ( Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt, by Rosalie David, 1998, pg 10, 50). While the accepted dates of the 18th Dynasty today are 1567-1320 BCE, ( Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt, by Rosalie David, 1998 pg 10.)

The changes in dates make a big difference in your sources story. Now if we can only acccpt that neither Tuthmosis III, nor Ramesses II was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. But put it where archaeology supports it, at the end of the Old Kingdom 6th Dynasty, your sourses theories continue to find support only in an earlier day.

The 18th Dynasty saw Egypt once again expanding into Ethiopia. While Biblical passages, as you have posted elsewhere support along with others, and areas such as chronology support the belief that David, and his son lived during the 18th Dynasty. However the Queen of Ethiopia at that time would have been most likely Ankhesenamun. Not Hatshepsut why? Because it wasn't until after her death that Egypt once again turned its eye and might to Nubia/Kush/Ethiopia.

As for your sources discourse on Saba/Sheba i haven't read it anywhere else. Interesting, however Sheba appears in the Bible in other contexts other than the Queen of Sheba. Did you know that? See verses Gen 10:7,28; Gen 25:3; Josh 19:2; 2nd Sam 20 1-7; 1st Chr 5:5:13; Job 6:19; Ps 72:10, 15; Jer 6:20. In several of these references, it is just a man's name.

Then there is the fact that the first capital city of Kush was Napata founded in the 18th Dynasty by Tuthmosis III However it does not make an appearence in historical importance until about 814 BCE when the Kushites push out the Egyptians and start their own country free from Egypt's control for the first time since Tuthmosis III. In 737 BCE Pi Ankiy of Napata breaks out of Kush, and reunifies Egypt. It is his Dynasty, the 25th that is defeated by the Assyrians in 663 BCE. ( A History of Ancient Egypt by Nicolas Grimal, 1992 pg 334-337) The 25th Dynasty defeated in Egypt were safe in its ancient city of Napata.

According to the Columbia Encyclopedia 6th Edition Meroe was founded and became the capital city of Kush in 530 BCE. So again dates do not agree to well from your source.

Then there is the concept that Divinely Born and Annointed Pharaoh Hapshepsut would consent to leave Egypt, her throne. With the true Pharaoh Tuthmosis III, waiting for her to die or leave so he could take his rightful place! To travel to Jerusalem to become the lover and mother a male child to the son of David, a Jewish (former Egyptian slave) shepard. Who came to the throne of Israel, (ancient Egyptian land) by marring the daughter of a rebel (Saul) who stoled Egyptian lands! LOL sometimes Bel, i read these concepts and wonder where these guys heads were when they were dreaming them up! You know what i mean?

Then they use the bad dates and this supposed son of the Great Solomon, and the Divinely Born Hapshepsut doesn't inherit either his mother's or father's lands but Ethiopia! But then again the dates as your source gives don't jive with what is now currently accepted.

Thanks for the post it was interesting and i enjoyed writing this in response. :) You have a nice day!


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