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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:38 am 
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Kiya wrote:
Having said that, several of the exmples you give appear to be prinesses marrying High Priests of Amun and the 21st/22nd dynasty of High Priests were pharaohs in all but name. But certainly the princesses who married viziers are out of the ordinary.

You may have mis-read that. Some are married to the High Priest of Ptah and quite a few are married to priests of Amen, but those men were not high priests. They were 2nd and 3rd priests, so nor 'pharaonic' at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:18 pm 
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ah! Yes it did seem to get more common from the end of the New Kingdom. Dare I say that Egypt was not as strong as it had been previously and alliances had to be sought where previously they would not have been?


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Re: Bintanath
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Kiya wrote:
The 'Royal Sister; Royal Daughetr; Great Royal Wife; Bintanath' appears on a statue of her brother Merneptah. For some this is proof that they married after her their father's death.

Does this strike anyone as strange given what Bintanath's age would have been at this point. Doesn't anyone think that maybe this Bintanath was the hitherto unnamed daughter Bintanath had with her father and is name in her tomb as 'King's Bodily Daughter'.


I've read Tyldesley's book too but I don't understand why she thinks that it proves a marriage between Bintanath and Merenptah. It can be simply that Bintanath did not drop the "King's Great Wife" title when Ramesses died; she simply added "King's Sister". (Similarly to the 18th dynasty situation of queens Merytre-Hatshepsut, Mutemwiya, etc., after the death of their husbands they still used the King's Wife title, and they added King's Mother. Does not mean any of them was both the mother and the wife of the same king, only that these Egyptians were overly fond of titles (much like many modern Egyptians :))

Kiya wrote:
Parallels with Nefertari II and ISet Nofret II.


Actually there is not much evidence that they were the daughters of Nefertari and Isetnofret; this theory is based only on the identical names. Princess Nefertari does not appear in the smaller Abu Simbel temple, where most of Nefertari's children were depicted, and Princess Isetnofret is not shown on any of the stelae on which Khaemwaset shows their nuclear family (they show only Ramesses, Isetnofret, Khaemwaset, Ramesses Junior, Bintanath, Merenptah). Though, of course it is possible that the stelae were erected between Years 22 and 54 (Bintanath is shown as queen, so it must be later than Year 22, and Ramesses Junior is apparently alive, he died around Year 54) and Isetnofret II was dead by that time (which would also mean that Merenptah's wife was Isetnofret III).

I think identifying someone as someone's daughter we need more evidence than identical names. Just like today, naming daughters after mothers wasn't as common as naming sons after fathers... (it seems it was much more common to name daughters after grandmothers.) The only New Kingdom example I can think of is Neferneferuaten-Tasherit, but first, it seems to me that Neferneferuaten was not really the actual name by which Nefertiti was called in everyday life, it was much like a title (apparently Smenkhkare took it too...), second, she always used the distinctive "Tasherit".

I can very well imagine a Ramesside wife of lesser importance trying to gain some favour by naming her daughters after the two chief queens :)

Also, I'm curious about this daughter of Bintanath; is the only evidence of her existence the picture which can be seen on Merytre's site? The description above her says only that she is a daughter of the king, where does it say that she is a child of Bintanath?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:47 am 
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Originally posted by Meritaton
Quote:
I've read Tyldesley's book too but I don't understand why she thinks that it proves a marriage between Bintanath and Merenptah.


Of course it doesn't prove it but it does suggest it. There is little about tht long ago that can be proven. Merneptah had many sisters so if Bintanath Tasherait (As I call her) was just another sister, why did she gain an honoured place on her brother's statue in place of another sister? Sibling marriages within the royal family were the norm. It would have been perfectly acceptable for Merneptah to marry another sister as well as Iset Nofrett II. Indeed, it would be unusual if he didn't, so why not Bintanath Tasherait?

Originally posted by Meritaton
Quote:
Actually there is not much evidence that they were the daughters of Nefertari and Isetnofret; this theory is based only on the identical names. Princess Nefertari does not appear in the smaller Abu Simbel temple, where most of Nefertari's children were depicted, and Princess Isetnofret is not shown on any of the stelae on which Khaemwaset shows their nuclear family (they show only Ramesses, Isetnofret, Khaemwaset, Ramesses Junior, Bintanath, Merenptah). Though, of course it is possible that the stelae were erected between Years 22 and 54 (Bintanath is shown as queen, so it must be later than Year 22, and Ramesses Junior is apparently alive, he died around Year 54) and Isetnofret II was dead by that time (which would also mean that Merenptah's wife was Isetnofret III). I can very well imagine a Ramesside wife of lesser importance trying to gain some favour by naming her daughters after the two chief queens


I haven't got the book with me right now but the theory isn't just based on the identical names. The larger temple of Abu Simble depicts the small figures by the larger sitting statues of Ramses. Apart from Nefertari and Tuya, the two eldest princes appear aswell as the senior princesses and I believe, without having the book in front of me, that it's the first six princesses which would include Iset Nofrett II. The list of children in the smaller temple and the Ramsseum are reputed to be incomplete and degrading. The royal chldren of both queens were considered equal even though only Nefertari appears as Great Royal Wife. I cannot imagine the daughters of lesser wives appearing on such a great temple as Abu Simble if they were not the daughters of either Nefertari or ISet Nofret. Even Iset Nofret doesn't appear.

Originally posted by Meritaton
Quote:
Ramesses Junior is apparently alive, he died around Year 54) and Isetnofret II was dead by that time (which would also mean that Merenptah's wife was Isetnofret III).


I've read somewhere that the marriage between Merneptah and Iset Nofret is supposed to be one of long standing so maybe it was the seond one, as opposed to the third, he married. Maybe, when she died, he married the third. I don't have 'royal Families of Egypt' in front of me either but I have a feeling it does say Merneptah married the third but Tyldesly I think says it was the second Iset Nofret. If anyone has the book in front of the, could they check what 'Royal Families of....' says about ISet Nofret III's parentage. Maybe she was Merneptah's daughter as well as wife. Without the book with me i'm just speculating of course:-)


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