Psusennes I wrote:
I have never come across any such claims that Ramesses II was a commoner in any book, textbook or historical source that I have encountered. The unanimous opinion seems to be that Ramesses was born of Thuya and Seti I, and that (at least) one of his elder brothers predeceased him and for this reason he took to the throne.
The statement that Ramesses II was a commoner (i.e. non-royal) when he was born is mentioned in:
K.A. Kitchen, Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and times of Ramesses II, Aris and Philips Ltd.,1982J. Tyldesley, Ramesses: Egypt's Greatest Pharaoh, Viking Publishers, 2000 Tyldesley specifically states the following (pg 11):
Quote:
Ramesses, although raised as a future king, was neither descended from a long line of pharaohs nor born to a King's Great Wife (queen consort). Like his father and grandfather before him he was born a commoner,...
Kitchen mentions that Ramesses was born during the reign of Horemheb. He states that Seti and Tuya had a first-born son who probably died early, doubtless in infancy. They had a daughter named Tjia and then a son named Ramesses. He specifically mentions that the aged Horemheb had chosen a successor who was a father and a grand-father, a dynasty already (as he put it).
Kitchen has Ramesses at age 8 or 9 when Sety I takes the throne after Ramesses I ruled for 1 or 2 years.
Psusennes I wrote:
Seti I ruled for c.14 years, as an average of various historical records, and Ramesses I ruled for c.3 years. This makes their combined period of rule around 16 years. We know, as I have said, that Seti I made Ramesses II Prince Regent when he was fourteen, at some stage during the late period of his rule
There is some debate as to when and for how long exactly the coregency took place.
Murnane has an interesting article:
Murnane, W.J., The early reign of Ramesses II and his co-regency with Sety I, Journal of Near Easter Studies, 1975He argues that the coregency was likely only for the last 2 years of Sety I's reign. It is interesting to note that the inscriptions at Beit-el-Wali are dated to this co-regency period (based on the presence of a Viceroy known to have served during that time only). In these inscriptions Ramesses II is accompanied by at least 4 of his sons. So he likely became co-regent at a much later age then 14 or 15. It's unlikely that he would have had 4 sons old enough to accompany him on a military campaign if he were in his mid-teens.
Kitchen estimates that he is 24 or 25 when he becomes sole ruler, and must have been in his early 20's when he became co-regent.
This seems to fit the evidence from the inscriptions rather nicely.
Psusennes I wrote:
Horemheb, the predecessor to Ramesses the First was not born of royal blood, and since he had no firm heirs, it was clear that a military commander or vizier would take over from him. Ramesses I was both. He may have been of no royal heritage, but there was no royal heritage left at the time! Ramesses I founded a *new* dynasty!
Very true, but I think that the fact that they were not related to Horemheb is still relevant. And by definition anyone related to Horemheb would have been considered royal at that point.
When Ramesses II was born it was not obvious yet that he would get the throne. His grand-father may have been in line for the throne at that point, but any son of Horemheb would have replaced them. And I can't imagine Horemheb not trying to get some children.
It's really a rather large dose of luck (for the Ramesses family) that there was apparently no male issue from Horemheb.
Psusennes I wrote:
Let's say you're correct, and let's say Ramesses was born in the last few years of Horemheb's reign (which, with current datings is barely possible - it puts Ramesses II's total life span at around 90 years, and also makes impossible the commonly agreed suggestion that he became Prince Regent at 14).
There are no problems according to the books/articles I have read. Ramesses did live to be very old, and Kitchen, who is probably one of the greatest experts in this area, does not assume a co-regency at age 14 at all. And neither does Murnane.
Psusennes I wrote:
He would have grown up in hugely affluent surroundings with his grandfather - the Grand Vizier and high priest of Amun,
This is an aside
Do you know a reference for Paramessu being High Priest of Amun? I have been doing some research on the High priests and I can't find too much from this period.
The HPA from the time of Tutankhamen-Horemheb is a man named Parennefer, who later changed his name to Wennefer. And under Sety I we have Nebneteru, called Tenry. I would be very interested in other references.
Psusennes I wrote:
Basically, I see what you're saying, but by the time Ramesses was able to think for himself (around 5 or 6), he would have known that his father (and later he himself) was to become King. Commoner is far too strong a word.
I see what you're saying
Non-royal at birth would be better.
That's pretty much what I take the term "commoner" to mean in this context. He was not of a lowly birth by any means. Not exactly peasant stock.
It's definitely an interesting time period.
