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Was Moses Akhenaten?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:56 am 
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I would like to ask you all a question and i hope i would find an answer for it somewhere here...

where is Prophet Moses mentioned in Egyptology? and i mean Moses the Prophet who's story we all know from the religious scriptures...

i found this and it is very puzzling...(the pictures are on http://www.greatdreams.com/moses.htm )


THE MYSTERY AND CONTROVERSY OF THE STORY OF MOSES

WAS MOSES AKHENATEN?

Amenhotep IV?




Moses from the Tomb
of Julius II. San Pietro
in Vincoli, Rome.Italy
Akhenaten



Is the Answer to the Question Below?
If this carving is Moses, there is NO resemblance at all to Akhenaten!



Photo added 1-3-00 - Profile of Moses/Yeshua with references to Masonic order. (Notice pyramid and Menorah above the head) Essene priesthood, 8 pointed star again, Venus sun, traveling by sea, Lord of the Sun and Moon . (suggesting the Pharaonic order.. the royal bloodline) Exerpted from Robert Ghostwolf - Hall of Records Page 6
I have learned things about my two legged ancestors from the pieces I have found that they left behind so that I would know. They had swords, and they wore leather. And some wore armor. They wore skins and danced with the Spirits. They wore feathers, and sandals as well as shoes and moccasins, and fine silk, yes here in America long ago. Some were very tall. Some lived in pueblos, and others rode upon Elephants I am told, in the messages they left behind Yet that happened here in America, and not some far off land.

I see the world through the eyes of my ancestors and in many ways I fit into neither their world, nor the present world of material madness. To me this corporate society is alien to this Earth I love so deeply, as alien as the English language. The native people today are as lost as anyone else. Now I hear many calling themselves the First Nations People. We are not Native Americans we are First nations People. Well there was quite frankly someone here before what presently are referred to as the Native Americans.

I have touched the carvings of ancient Egyptians in the New Mexico and Arizona Deserts in Colorado, and in Illinois. I stood in awe of statues of Horus and RA that towered over me carved in the fire pink stone of the desert caves, those who carved these effigies, perhaps they were the Native Americans? I have seen with my own eyes bodies that were ten and twelve feet in height buried in crypts wearing armor, draped in silk and cotton cloth, and carrying huge broad swords were these the Native Americans? Conventional history says they could not be, but there are things that historians have neglected to include in the books we were taught from back in school.

Excerpted from Robert Ghostwolf Starnations






.

Jan Assmann both defines and practices in his book, the study of historical memory--a study, in this case, of the ways in which factual and fictional events and characters are stored in religious beliefs and transformed through philosophical justification, literary reinterpretation, philological restitution (or falsification), and psychoanalytic demystification.
To account for the complexities of the foundational event through which monotheism was established, MOSES THE EGYPTIAN goes back to the short-lived monotheistic revolution of the Egyptian king Akhenaten (1360-1340 B.C.E.).

The biblical chronology dates the birth of Moses to around 1527 BC. In the new chronology of Egypt, the pharaoh on the throne of Egypt was Neferhotep I of the 13th Dynasty.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:07 pm 
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There is no mention of the biblical Moses in Egyptological sources. Using the Bible as a source of historical data is, at best, risky. Technically, even the name "Moses" is not Egyptian. It may be a corruption of half of the Egyptian name-ending, "Mose", as in Thut-mose. The Hebrew nation is hardly mentioned at all in Egyptian writings--there is one slight reference in a stele of Marenptah. Things mentioned in the Bible, such as the Exodus, seem not to have historical fact. One must remember that most books in the Bible were oral legends first, and meant more to show the Hebrew people they were different.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:12 pm 
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I wonder what could happen if people discover that Moses was Akhenaton....


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:02 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
There is no mention of the biblical Moses in Egyptological sources.



if this is true then how can there be connections made between the biblical story of Moses and clearly named Pharoahs in Egyptology???...in other words how can the following paragraphs be true???:




Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. Had heard the rumours of how troubles would come to Egypt from the Hebrew nation and so he ordered the deaths of all the first-born sons to prevent that event from ever occurring. However oddly one year would pass and those sons of the Hebrew nation would be allowed to live and then the next year the first-born was to die. So they alternated these deaths this way so as not to create more problems for them selves. Aaron the brother of Moses was born in the year that those first-born were to be saved and Moses was born in the year that those first-born were to die. So his mother placed him in a basket and set him lose to fate on the Nile. His sister followed the basket and saw the Pharaohs daughter Nefure discover the babe and she decided to keep the child and adopt it.



Nefure was the only surviving daughter of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. Nefure she convinced her father to make her little adopted child Moses his future heir. So Moses was set up to become the future King of all Egypt. Moses became known as Senmut which means mothers brother. It is a named derived from the tale of Osiris and Horus but I will not be talking about that. Historians studies show that Moses came to live in the palace at about 12 years Old about the same Time that his adopted Grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. Became main emporer over the whole of Egypt. At this Time they had moved from the palace at Memphis where the Co regent ruled and went to Thebes where the main Palace was.



At about the age of 18 Moses was designated the future heir apparent with his mother Nefure as his regent. She was now given the additional royal name of “Hatshepsut” and was then referred to as Queen instead of princess. Once someone was designated as the future heir to the throne his inscriptions refer to him as “King”. Moses was elevated to this position of heir apparent when he was 24 years old. When Moses became about 33 years old he was designated as being the Crown Prince and became known as Thutmoses 11. The numbers after the Egyptian Kings names are simply designations given to them by Egyptologists to identify each succeeding person of the same name. When Moses was 40 he killed an Egyptian and so as history claims Moses had to flee Egypt.



To prevent the loss of the Crown to another family Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. Who clearly was still alive otherwise Moses would have been crowned King Pharaoh. Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. married his daughter off to her younger half brother Thutmose who became called Thutmose the 11 and that was how Nefure Hatshepsut became married.



There are claims that the father of Nefure / Hatshepsut had died when she was 15 yet this cannot be true for Moses fled Egypt when he was 40 and history speaks of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. being alive at that Time. In fact if he had died then Moses would have been ruling Egypt as the emperor Pharaoh. But he was not that ruler of Egypt because his adopted grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. was still alive.



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:03 am 
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If Moses were Akhetaten, he would have had no reason to leave Egypt.

Also, Akhetaten reigned toward the end of the 18th dynasty, before the Hyksos invasion, I believe. Akhetaten spent most of his time building the city of Akhetaten and temples in the honor of the Aten.

The Hyksos were the ones that introduced the Egyptians to the chariot, around the time of Ramses II's reign. This was approximately 150 - 200 years after the death of Akhetaten, and in the myth of the Exodus it was said that the Hebrews left on foot and chariot alike...

Also, you mention Thutmose and Amenhotep. These pharaohs ruled in the start of the 18th dynasty. If Moses were born some time during their reign, that would have made him anywhere from 80 to 150 by the time he was the Akhetaten you believe him to be. The longest reigning pharaoh was Ramses II at almost 70 years, which would still be a long cry from the age Moses would have to be in order to surpass the lifespan of five consecutive pharaohs.

Quote:
The biblical chronology dates the birth of Moses to around 1527 BC. In the new chronology of Egypt, the pharaoh on the throne of Egypt was Neferhotep I of the 13th Dynasty.

This is quite untrue. The 13th dynasty was approximately 1783 - 1640 B.C. - a long time away from 1527. If the biblical chronology were correct, Moses would be placed in the 18th dynasty, around the time of Thutmose I or II.

Quote:
At about the age of 18 Moses was designated the future heir apparent with his mother Nefure as his regent. She was now given the additional royal name of “Hatshepsut”

Hatshepsut became queen after Thutmose II. If by going off of the previous quote, saying Moses did in fact live during the rule of Thutmose I or II, Hatshepsut would have been an elderly woman by the time she became queen, which we know is not true.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:12 am 
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BUT...have you all come across this before...???


Moses and Akhenaten
one and the same person By Ahmed Osman

The Bible and the Kuran speak of Moses being born in Egypt, brought up in the pharaonic royal palace, and leading the Israelites in their Exodus to Canaan. In historical terms, when did Moses live, and who was the pharaoh of Oppression? Now that archaeologists have been able to uncover the mysteries of ancient history, we need to find answers to these questions. Egyptian born Ahmed Osman, believes that he has been able to find the answers for these questions which bewildered scholars for centuries. He claims that Moses of the Bible is no other than King Akhenaten who ruled Egypt for 17 years in the mid-14th century BC.

During his reign, the Pharaoh Akhenaten was able to abolish the complex pantheon of the ancient Egyptian religion and replace it with a single God, Aten, who had no image or form. Seizing on the striking similarities between the religious vision of Akhenaten and the teachings of Moses, Sigmund Freud was the first to argue that Moses was in fact an Egyptian. Now Ahmed Osman, using recent archaeological discoveries and historical documents, contends that Akhenaten and Moses were one and the same person.

In a stunning retelling of the Exodus story, Osman details the events of Moses/Akhenaten’s life: how he was brought up by Israelite relatives, ruled Egypt for seventeen years, angered many of his subjects by replacing the traditional Egyptian pantheon with worship of Aten, and was forced to abdicate the throne. Retreating to exile in Sinai with his Egyptian and Israelite supporters, he died out of the sight of his followers, presumably at the hands of Seti I, after an unsuccessful attempt to regain his throne.

Osman reveals the Egyptian components in the monotheism preached by Moses as well as his use of Egyptian royal and Egyptian religious expression. He shows that even the Ten Commandments betray the direct influence of Spell 125 in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Osman’s book, Moses and Akhenaten provides a radical challenge to the long-standing beliefs concerning the origin of Semitic religion and the puzzle of Akhenaten’s deviation from ancient Egyptian tradition. In fact, if Osman’s contentions are right, many major Old Testament figures would be of Egyptian origin.












Freud on Akhenaten
There are prophets who brought the concept of Monotheism to the World.

Among them were Akhenaten, Moses and Zarathrusta.

Many people feel they were all the same soul.

One of Europe's great thinkers, particularly affected by the abundant mysteries being uncovered in Egypt, was Sigmund Freud. The founder of modern day Psychoanalysis, he spent many years studying ancient Egypt. Toward the end of his life, after nearly two decades of research, Freud published what would become his final book. It was titled Moses and Monotheism.

Here Freud investigated several unorthodox theories regarding the true histories of Moses and the roots of Judaism and Christianity. Supported by historical facts, Freud concluded that Moses had been an Egyptian who brought out of his native country the doctrine which was given to his followers, thus forming the foundation of Judaism.

Freud places Moses in Egypt, as an initiate of the Aten religion of Pharaoh Akhnaton. Although, one of the most significant of Egypt's ancient royals, Akhenaten stands, to this day, as one of history's great enigmas. Although, he was not the central figure, the inclusion of him in Freud's book would add to a growing interest in this hidden king.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:22 am 
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Akhetaten's new monotheist religeon was just a publicity stunt. He would stand in a small, boothlike room lined with gold and give presents to his officials so they would kiss his ass, saying the gifts were from the Aten, while the sunlight reflected off the gold for effect.

As per 'striking similarities', that's just comparing apples to oranges. Both believed in a singular god. So what? I am white, and one of my best friends is black, but we are both human, so we must have the same taste in pretty much everything, right? Wrong. People, accounts, stories, etc. are all unique.

It says that Osman has a stunning retelling of the Exodus story. Don't you think it is possible that Osman changed some facts and twisted things around to make himself look right? I do it all the time, I'm no stranger to "the truth".

As far as Frood is concerned, I really don't respect anything he has to offer. He was nothing more than a morphine addict with a suit.

If you can't tell, I'm not in the mood right now to actually detail inconsistancies with the "facts" you are presenting, mostly because I just got home from a hard night's work, and I'm rather spent. You seem so hell-bent that everyone agree with you. You may not say it, but with everyone's objective analysis, you find different texts to try and further prove your point, which I apologize, but I cannot agree with.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I am not saying you are right, either. I don't know what really happened those thousands of years ago, if anything happened at all. I wasn't there. You weren't there either, and therefore, you cannot know for certain either. Remember: history changes with each passing victory. The triumphant write the history books that glorify their name. The same is said of psychoanalitisists and historians. Everyone wants to be right, and can't face the fact that they are allmost always wrong.

..Reading back on that, I apologize if it sounded like I was chewing you out, it really is not my intent. I'm just seeing inconsistancies in the sources you are giving, and as I show them, you turn a blind eye and look for the next source of rediculous "evidence" to back your claim.

In all honesty, I want to be proven wrong. I want you to prove to me that Moses was Akhetaten. Not because I agree or disagree with you, but because I love learning; however, I cannot take any of this seriously if so many mistakes are made.

And with that.. I am going to bed!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:01 am 
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Well said, Unas.
What has been posted is, indeed, like comparing apples and oranges. On the one hand, the poster evidently firmly believes in the Moses=Akhenaten idea. More power to him. People are free to believe as they choose. But logical evidence shows that the idea is not practical.
When one enters the realm of the Exodus, it becomes a matter of personal belief again. Personally, I do not believe that it ever really happened on the scale that is told in the Bible, but that does not mean that it did not happen! But trying to pin-point the exact time, to show which Pharaoh ruled, which princess adopted Moses, made him heir-apparent is, at best, a completely hopeless task.
You'll notice anything that is posted "proving" the subject is full of Maybes, Likelys and Perhaps. There is no definate proof of anything. Until such proof is forthcoming, my logical sense, my Doubting Thomas tells me "show me"!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:08 am 
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i thank those who reply...i myself do not hold a certain thought myself but facts and theories are falling into my hands and i thought of posting them in here to see who agrees with me and who doesnt...

i repsect those who agree with me and those who dont too...but i am just seeking the truth thats all...

and this is just a sample of what i am finding...
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/osman_moses.php


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:38 am 
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I'm sorry, but...this really hit a nerve with me.

But first, I gotta say this:


unas wrote:
Akhetaten's new monotheist religeon was just a publicity stunt. He would stand in a small, boothlike room lined with gold and give presents to his officials so they would kiss his ass


Dude, I believe the correct term for Akhenaten is "FAT ass", thank you. :wink:

Ok, back to being my anal self when it comes to Akhenaten (Tut is obviously no exception as well). Firstly, I must comment about this passage you presented here, Doctor Deen:


Quote:
During his reign, the Pharaoh Akhenaten was able to abolish the complex pantheon of the ancient Egyptian religion and replace it with a single God, Aten, who had no image or form. Seizing on the striking similarities between the religious vision of Akhenaten and the teachings of Moses, Sigmund Freud was the first to argue that Moses was in fact an Egyptian. Now Ahmed Osman, using recent archaeological discoveries and historical documents, contends that Akhenaten and Moses were one and the same person.


Ok, this is the part where I got anal. I watched a special about Moses on the Discovery channel--though it was really about Ramses II and his oldest son, but hey, Moses was in there too--and they beleived that actually, Akhenaten influenced Moses when it came to Monotheism. I would rather believe that Moses took on Akhenaten's "teachings" even way after Akhenaten died, then believe that Moses WAS Akhenaten. (Even though I don't know much on this, since Akhenaten's legacy was literally torn apart by Horemheb and later Pharaohs).

Ok, another passage that got me thinking:


Quote:
In a stunning retelling of the Exodus story, Osman details the events of Moses/Akhenaten’s life: how he was brought up by Israelite relatives, ruled Egypt for seventeen years, angered many of his subjects by replacing the traditional Egyptian pantheon with worship of Aten, and was forced to abdicate the throne. Retreating to exile in Sinai with his Egyptian and Israelite supporters, he died out of the sight of his followers, presumably at the hands of Seti I, after an unsuccessful attempt to regain his throne.


That...wow...I'm holding in a snicker even as we speak. I'm sorry to be so critical, but when it comes to Tut or Akhenaten, I get picky. They ARE my favorite Pharaohs, after all. 8)

Anywho, Akhenaten being brought up by Israelites?...Whhoooaaa, hold on there, buddy! Akhenaten was brought up by Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III. They are most certainly not Israelites, to my knowledge. :lol: And Akhenaten beleived in peace VERY strongly...plus, he was too wrapped up in his family to even think about other countries invading his borders. Why, oh why, would he get his fat, lazy arse up to lead Hebrews out of Egypt, if there WERE Hebrews during his reign.

Plus, what got my goat the most...you leave out Tut, Ay, and Horemheb. Believe it or not, they are also factors in this story which this Osman dude didn't refer to. He leaves out Nefertiti, Kiya, all six daughters, Smenkhare (Whether he was real or not)...everyone under the sun! (If you pardon the pun...hey, that rhymed!).

What I'm saying--and Doctor Deen, I'm helping you, not hurting you--is that there are two sides to every story. Unas is right, too, about everyone wanting to be right. They wanna have the satisfaction of seeing others apologize for having to put them down, demean them...they wanna own thier asses! So, don't look at just one theory and say it's true...look at Akhenaten's life FOR REAL. Look the the real-life accounts of his reign...then you'll see things in a new light. Look up his family, look up his son, Tut. Look at any and all theories..and put them to the test, if you want. That's why a board like this exists. :wink:

But thanks anyway, for sharing your...strange...theory.... :lol: Sorry...really, I get defensive about Akhenaten and Tut, and I know I shouldn't, but...hey, that's me.

Have a good day, Doctor Deen, The Tutness is OUT! 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:48 pm 
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Another half-baked theory, and about as "stunning" as the blow to the head Ahmed Osman must have suffered prior to proposing it. I find it highly entertaining hogwash, but hogwash nonetheless.

Regards,

Niankhkhnum


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:41 am 
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You certainly cut to the chase, Niankhkhnum! Thank you for posting that response. I was being oh, so tactful in trying to say (basically) the same. I didn't want to offend Doctor Deen, I understand how very hurtful it can be to have your favorite theory laughed at!
How do you tactifully say "hogwash"?... :lol:


Last edited by Osiris II on Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:36 pm 
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It's really interesting this discussion!!
I'm intrigued by the similarity between Akhenaton and Moses... I think if it was true many things on AE could change... Will this come up to an end, and discover really if they were the same person?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:38 pm 
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Well, I won't deny the "possibility", but the sources that have been presented as fact are all seeming to be of their own genre; none of them coinside with one another, and others are just plain wrong!

Like I said before, I want to be proven wrong, but it takes a lot more than a crazy theory to sway me from hundreds of years of people's research.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:52 pm 
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What would it matter if Akhenaten did happen to be Moses? We would just know he was Moses....By answering that question we bring up many more questions about the man that will probably never be answered....The same applies to if he had an illness. We will probably never know. We can theorize all we want.

I also believe that if, by chance, proof was found that proved beyond the shadow of a doubt he waaaas Moses-the world couldn't handle it. Historians all over the world would go nuts. There would be religious turmoil, because Akhenaten being Moses would mean they would have to question everything that was wriiten in the Bible-allll Holy texts. A total breakdown.

Therefore, I think theorizing is fun. I love to analyze. I think ol Wa'Enre may have been Moses, I ain't gonna' give any proof, I have proof, but nothing that can't be proven wrong-therefore it's just fun and it's just me thinking. (Exercising the old brain cells.) I will also support the Marfan's theory until the day I die. Thhhere, I have proof, but once again, it can perhaps be proved wrong.


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