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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:38 pm 
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I agree! 8)

With a good dictionary I think I can help...
:oops:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:48 pm 
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GREAT IDEA this to create a group based on Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:05 pm 
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Sure. I'm tired now- but we should definetely use KTO rather than e-mails. It's far simpler, and less likely to flop. I'm not so sure that basing a course around GEG is a good idea though.

My main concern with using GEG is that not everyone will be grounded in the basics to begin with. GEG focuses on the Grammar of the language (a style which I personally prefer to the work of Collier and Manley), but this can make it quite tough going. It would be plain ridiculous to start with Gardiner's before some people have learnt the alphabet, most of the biliteral glyphs and at least have a general idea of how the language functions. It would be like trying to teach people to do acrobatics before they could even stand up.

For example, if I were to give you the sentences "hb.tw tw ssh m niwt m gr" and "ikh ddjd sw m taty", how many of you would be able to translate them easily, knowing exactly what the subjects and objects of each sentence were etc. etc. without needing to scroll through GEG?

(just imagine they're actually written down. . . well actually I have a really good idea- In lessons we can just copy the manual de Codage notation from the bottom register of JSesh and then post it onscreen. Then the person who wants to read it need just copy it into the bar of their version of the notation software JSesh and then they'll be able to see and edit the glyphs!)

Get JSesh at: http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/JSesh/

If everyone who wants to take part is able to complete sme sort of basic online course, or get through Collier and Manley's before we begin then the standard should be high enough for us to buckle down some Grammar. My only other word of advice is that GEG is much harder, and less rewarding to begin with than learning to read Egyptian in a simplified 'jig-saw' method (such as in C+Ms). However, only by actualy learning the way the the language works itself can you ever hope to understand truly the words and writings of the Egyptians. It is essential to use GEG at some point, but there's no point diving into a Pirahna infested River unless you can swim really well. . . and have learn all your dependent, independent and suffix pronouns by heart! :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:01 am 
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uhm...I know now what you mean, Psus, but don't you think that we should face one problem at the time?...

First, I would start to ask DM28 if it possible to have a dedidated space on this site: it can also bring more people and enlight the interest in ancient egyptian language, too. I do think, like you do, that having these sort of "lessons" here on the site, will give to all those people who can be interested to join in the possibility to reciprocate doubts and exercises...

second, about the text: C&M can be a good alternative to GEG in order to simplify things, or just start with what we have and try to face problems of grammar one by one as they appear...

do you think it can be?

for the moment I can tell you I own GEG, nothing else but my willing to learn and pen and paper to write...but I also downloaded Jsesh! ;)

I have more spare time now and so I have much more chances to help you! :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:26 am 
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"Psus, but don't you think that we should face one problem at the time?... "

Yes- I do. This is why I firmly believe that GEG is possibly the worst book to begin with when learning Egyptian. The first chapter alone introduces more ideas to the scholar than the first half of C+M's, and refers to lots of complex gramatical constructs that will baffle anyone who hasn't already got a firm grounding in the basics of Egyptian, or hasn't studied a different Ancient Classical language in some detail. You won't need to go out and buy any more books, Maatkara, but I for one feel that starting by learning things like the htp-di-nesw formula would not only give beginners practice, but also something to show for it. If we get bogged down in GEG most people will undoubtedly get terribly confused before Chapter VII (when things get far more jargon-filled and complex), and have nothing to show for it. Someone who has completed a few chapters of C+M's is able to read quite a lot of the inscriptions they encounter in Egyptian stele and so on, but a GEG student, even someone who has finished the first ten chapters will struggle to read even the most common inscriptions. This changes later however. After completing C+M's a student still doesn't really understand how Egyptian works on a deeper level- they can just fit words that they know together to sort of 'invent' a story that is more or less correct. A GEG student however can understand the inner workings of Egyptian- and even go as far as to not just read sentences, but write their own stories!

You surely understand? And have you translated those sentences yet? :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:45 am 
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I think I understand what Maatkara and Psusennes mean...
I agree using the Collier and Manley's book first: it gives berginner students the basics for to learn hieros...
We could prepare some initial lessons with monoliteral, biliteral (...) sounds (the beginning!), post them in this forum, and after do a "poll" and ask the "new student" if they like this kind of lessons...
So, we could go on with the course and prepare other lessons with the "help" od C&M...
I think that my problem in learning translation is the exercice: I think those books (C&M and GEG) have few exercice...
I know that prepare new exercice is impossible but I think we should do something for this...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:47 am 
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I agree- and I can write lessons with not much difficulty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:51 am 
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I think I could help you all doing some lessons...but I don't know: I' m very busy with my holiday-homework... :evil:
PM or post if you need help...
Bye bye
Chiaraal :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:36 am 
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Well, I explain what my idea is (or was) on studying hieroglyphs: when I bought GEG last saturday (what a great happiness!! )I thought easier for me to study on C&M's book, then to acquire more informations on GEG. This is why C&M's book is easily to bring around, while GEG is more difficult...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:19 am 
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GEG is much more complicated than C+M's. Think of it as 'Part II', with just a brief revision section of the bits and pieces introduced by C+M's at the beginning. If everyone's been through C+M's though, I'd be perfectly happy to run through GEG with everone. It would be good revision for me to look at the earlier lessons, and just test my recall.

The most important thing... to actually learn the Grammar. 'Till you can recite everything backwards and forwards, back to front, upside down. . . everything. Learn it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:33 am 
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hey, Psus!
You have definitely much more experience than I , so if you say it is better with C+M's, for me it's ok...but if you see GEG goes fine too, well, I'm here! :D ...I wish I could be able to face every single grammar rule in all the different ways...so that I can deeply understand it.
If you think it is necessary to buy C+M's too, I'll do that! :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:10 am 
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Location: stillwater ,minnesota
Eminem is cool


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:50 am 
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Location: Saqqara... someday...
OK, that's nice. Perhaps you could start a thread in the Coffee Lounge about how cool he is, rather than taking topics off subject? :D

Anyhoo, what help I have offered to "possibly do" in the past, I'm afraid I must acquit. I'm moving out of my mom's place (I'm renting a house with some friends), am getting a dog (now that I'll finally have a yard!), am getting a job with more hours (and thus, higher pay; more pay), and am preparing for Culinary school. So in short, I'm a bit bogged down for now.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:11 pm 
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Sure thing Unas.

Maatkara, I never said it was imperative that you purchase CM's. I can just type out the useful bits of it. The bit that is most useful (the first few chapters) would probably be much too easy for you anyway. It just explains determinatives, biliteral, triliteral and monoliteral glyphs very well, and has you reading some real inscriptions quite quickly. It doesn't tell you nearly as much as GEG.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:30 pm 
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Ah! ok Psus...I assume I don't need it for the moment...

well, you know I have much more spare time now...so, if you need me, just tell me! :wink:


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