All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 154 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 11  Next
 

Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:34 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Fri May 13, 2005 10:15 pm
Posts:350
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Sorry to do this again but the obelisks of Europe are now a major part of the history of their home cities!


Now look what I've done, I've gone and fired up someone's wrath. Sorry about that; it wasn't my intent. I fear for the Parisian obelisk specifically because the pollution there is destroying it. I would rather it be returned to Egypt than to be eaten bit by bit by car exhaust. And Egypt actually has very few salvageable obelisks. Almost all of the good ones were taken back to Europe because they were...well, still good. And to me, like I said, most any one of these obleisks is of greater historical value than the bust of Nefertiti. The question now is, how many people have I pissed off by saying that? :shock:

Quote:
If Hawass wants to end Western influence in Egypt's archeological work then he is facing disaster...


Have I missed something on the news recently? I haven't heard Hawass say anything like this. I certainly hope he hasn't because it would be a monumentally stupid thing to say, and whatever else you might say about Hawass, he is not a stupid man. As you said, Egypt very much depends on foreigners for the preservation of its historical sites. I think Egypt is doing a good overall job of looking out for its nation's historical heritage, but it could not at all succeed without the active assistance of the universities and museums of the West. That's just plain and simple fact.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:44 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Fri May 13, 2005 10:15 pm
Posts:350
Location: Chicago, IL
Oh, by the way, what is this "Romeo" business you and tutness were talking about? Sounds intriguing. As the new guy here, I always seem to be playing catch-up. :o


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:24 am 
Pharaoh
Offline

Joined:Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Posts:914
Location: Long Beach, CA
There was a poster with the name of aka_romeo here, and he was quite abusive towards people with different gender orientation. Thankfully, he seems to have gone. He managed to piss off quite a few here!

I find the attitude of people here concerning Hawass to be very childish. They all seem to be agreed on one thing--Hawass is wrong, Hawass is self-centered, Hawass is dictatorial. I disagree. I really think he cannot be cited for his enthusiasm about Egypt. He can be abrasive--he "speaks first, and puts his mind in gear second" a lot. I can understand why many think of him in such a way. When you meet him, and I'm sure you will at the Museum, keep in mind his dedication to his work. Try to overlook his brisknesss. He can be rather hard to get to know personally, but he can also be a very close, caring friend.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:55 pm 
Pharaoh
Offline

Joined:Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:04 am
Posts:705
Location: Valle d'Aosta- Italy
...I completely agree with you Osiris II about Zahi Hawass...I had the chance to hear him speaking of Egypt...his love for the poeple and the land of Egypt involve those who are listening....
did you ever tried to explain something that you "feel yours" to somebody who seems to know nothing about that?
the only thing that I don't like is that unfortunatly Science and Archaeology had to leave their places to Politics, Power, Money.... :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:02 am 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:45 am
Posts:211
Location: Roma, Italy
You are right! :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:21 am 
Egyptian Architect
Offline

Joined:Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:45 pm
Posts:112
Location: Sweden
Well I must say that you seems to get the point kmt_sesh :wink:
I dont now how many times I stated the word "KEY RELICS"
not "ALL RELICS" There seems to be alot of secondhand
info here abut Cairo Museum?? you have heard from a friend
or someone else that its so bad... Well those people you are talking
to have no interest in telling you that "Wow it was great" be cause then
the biggest argument for not returning those "KEY RELICS" is gone of cause...

And if you support the Idea abut sending the Obelisks back home?
what is the difference between that and sending the Rosetta Stone
back home. They where acquired the same way and have the same
historian value. The Rosetta Stone is probably the biggest and most
important discovery done ever. It opens the whole world to
understand The Ancient Egypt.
If a country cant claim the right for its history then this world is far
from the freedom some people from special US and Brittan are talking abut.

When it comes to Nefertiti, She is a Icon probably the most famous women
in all history, When I was living in Kina for a time. There they know abut
the beautiful Egyptian Queen. She is so famous among other cultures
and the bust is probably the closest we ever comes to here looks.
She should not be hidden in Berlin for the Germans only, and rich Europeans.
She should be in the Armana room in Cairo with her King
And please take the web tour and see for your self can you
honestly say that its so horrifying??????????????????
Follow this link, take the tour and tell me what you see that is so bad???
Please be patient and let the site load
http://www.queen-nefertiti.com/cairomuseum.html

You can study the Rosetta Stone from a picture as well as the way
you see it in London, Buy a replica and take it home it goes for the same.

Maybe you should spend some money on a firsthand visit to Egypt first
and feel the greatness first before you make judgment on where
this objects belong. If you cant afford the trip then please be a little
more humble in your opinions abut all the people from the region
that cant afford the trip to all your countries. When you assemble
this KEY OBJECTS at one place you can have a knowledge center
for everyone. Of cause the US, Britt's and French want be the leading
once, This would be lead by the Egyptians together with the whole world.

If your school system dont allow you to go to Egypt and study those relics
then its your systems fault and must be changed in your countries.
The world is on instant change and you have to follow up on that
otherwise you will be left behind.
I am probably lucky to live in a country that takes education
seriously, If I am so lucky and get a seat in those classes
then I am guarantee at least 6 month of firsthand study in Egypt.
We dont buy are self a seat in my country, we have to earn it with
good grades from long study. So you dont have to be rich on money
but on knowledge and work hard then you can have your dreams come true....
For the record.. We dont have private University, They are run by the State
and are paid for by the state so everyone should have the same opportunity
to study without to have a rich uncle paying. And it keeps the school free from
politic and private interest

Finally we can all agree on one thing and that is, This is all abut money
nothing else, If there was no money to be earned those relics would be
shipped back to Egypt. But I strongly support the idea abut touring
relics if its possible not just to make money and space but to
show them not only in London, Berlin and so on........

And to my dear friend Si-Amun.....
Please... dont you have anything else to say then "Shut-Up" when your
arguments are drained :wink:
You have chosen a name of a King
that supports strongly my ideas abut keeping the Kings and Queens
along with their treasures in Egypt hidden from people like you..... :lol:
This gave me a good laugh.... :wink:
You are probably going to need a full bottle of Gin now to calm down
otherwise we can see on Sky News that a guy self ignited in London to night :wink:

(Please take this as a Joke my friend)


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 9:08 am 
Pharaoh
Offline

Joined:Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:10 pm
Posts:947
Location: London, England
Sorry, but I am not taking that as a joke. My arguments have certainly not run out at all, I am just sick and tired of idiotic little men coming onto forums like this and having a political agenda. At least most people are intelligent enough to not make it asd blatant as you have. If you are so truly in love with Egypt then perhaps you should start to talk about the history a little more rather than the political statement that you are trying to make. I am completely calm, so I don't need that bottle of gin actually because I am safe in the knowledge that I am here to what this site is designed for, not to advertising a political agenda that even a foolish idiot could have disguised a bit better.

(take this as a joke my friend, and detect the sarcasm)


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 5:27 pm 
Pharaoh
Offline

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 am
Posts:574
Location: The palace of Tutness!
Osiris II wrote:
There was a poster with the name of aka_romeo here, and he was quite abusive towards people with different gender orientation. Thankfully, he seems to have gone. He managed to piss off quite a few here!


:shock: Osiris, you don't know how RIGHT you are...he offended me not only for insuting people he doesn't even know, but he blamed an entire group because of his "Troubled past", which to me, is a sob-story, compared to the life I've lived, but I won't go into it, because I cry everytime I do...there were deaths involving innocent people, and that's all I will say.

On a lighter note...and I'm making a forum on this for some odd reason....I GRADUTAED FROM HIGH SCHOOL TODAY!!! YAY!!! FREE AT LAST, BABYYYYY!!!! WOOOOOHOOOO!!! :D :lol: :wink: See how hyper I get after eating chocolate cake? lol!!


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:50 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Fri May 13, 2005 10:15 pm
Posts:350
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
you have heard from a friend or someone else that its so bad...


As I've said, I've never been to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. Yes, what I've been told is by others who have visited there. Everyone I've talked with loved their experience there, but many (including an Egyptologist who's become a friend of mine) also comment on how cluttered and disorganized it is in some sections. Please understand, Claude II, that in making such a statement, neither I nor anyone whom I've met is condemning this institution. No need to see everything in extremes.

I'm simply saying what others have said: until the Egyptians have reorganized their museums, there's no way anyone would consider handing over incredibly valuable artifacts...to be lost in the clutter. Fortunately, the Egyptians are making an honest attempt to straighten out their institutions...and again, the new Tut tour is helping to finance that. Hawass himself has publicly admitted what a mess their museums can be, but he's spearheading the effort to correct matters. The latest advances in their Egyptian Mummy Project (EMP) are part of this overall "cleanup." There was a fascinating artilce about the EMP in one of the recent editions of KMT, I believe.

But make no mistake about it. Neither I nor anyone I've ever met can say anything but the truth: the Egyptian Museum in Cairo is a world-class institution, one of the most important museums on this planet. But again, like I've said before, all the talk of this museum on this forum makes it seem as though it's the only museum in Egypt, which of course it is not. Egypt has many museums and is building around a dozen more, I believe...once more, something more the current Tut tour is helping to finance.

I cannot agree with you, Claude II, about this notion of having "a knowledge center for everyone." The simple truth is, the vast majority of the world will never travel to Egypt. I have two college degrees from two different colleges, and neither offered the same sort of travel opportunities you mentioned. You're very fortunate to have these opportunities. Most people do not have them, and many, many people on this planet will never set foot as a student inside a university. I find your statement "I am probably lucky to live in a country that takes education seriously" rather unkind and insulting, suggesting that your country is the only one that takes a proper view of education. I've been a student and an educator and am proud both of the young people I once taught and the other educators with whom I worked...and am proud as well of many of the teachers and professors who taught me. They all took education very seriously. Do not diminish educators and educational institutions around the world because they don't fit your personal definition of what such people and places should be.

Quote:
If you cant afford the trip then please be a little more humble in your opinions abut all the people from the region that cant afford the trip to all your countries.


Again you seem to be implying that I am or someone else here is somehow insulting people from Egypt or the Middle East. Your inference is obtuse, and I asked you last time to cite examples of these insults. And by the way, I live in Chicago, and Chicago has a HUGE population of Middle Eastern immigrants. I speak with them all the time at our museum. They are hardly a rarity in my country.

As for my statement about obelisks and the Rosetta Stone, by and large the Rosetta Stone is indeed a more valued artifact. I was simply expressing my personal feeling that the obelisks dotting the European landscape are more historically valuable than the Rosetta Stone. Again, that's my own opinion. The simple truth is, the importance of the Rosetta Stone is historically overblown--thanks to more modern misunderstandings. Folks like Thomas Young helped puzzle out that the glyphs inside the cartouches spelled out royal names...and that's about as far as anyone got with the Rosetta Stone until Champollion came along. Champollion actually could never get a decent, reliable copy of the Stone from the Brits and made only minimal use of this relic. He relied on hand-drawn copies of inscriptions from collegues and friends who visited Egypt, and of course on the material assembled by Napolean's savants. Only after Champollion made his tremendous breakthroughs was anyone able to make more sense of the Rosetta Stone itself. That's simple fact; it's history. Modern people have it quite wrong.

Again, the Rosetta Stone is just a royal decree engraved into stone, something exceedingly common all through Egypt. Obelisks, however, were far fewer and were powerful royal solar symbols. That's why I view obelisks as more valuable.

I won't argue with you on the Nefertiti bust. We agree that it's one of the most spectacular works of art in the history of mankind. To say anything more about how valuable it is, is entirely subjective and not of my interest. I do agree that it should be restored to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo or one of the sister facilities, but like I said, modern politics and law make that practically impossible. However distasteful that is, it's the truth.

By the way, I already had that website in your link in my Favorites folder. It's really something, isn't it?

I'll conclude with one thing. You seem to paint the pharaohs of ancient times with rosy colors. Now, I think these were some of the most interesting people ever to live--Ramesses II is my personal favorite--but make no mistake that many of these pharaohs were some of history's greatest megalomaniacs. It's not even their fault--they were raised to be that way. But that doesn't change the fact that they thought themselves above all others and could be quite vicious and cruel. Again, they were raised to be that way. You can be sure that to the Nubians, Libyans, Hittites, Hebrews, Canaanites, and others, the Egyptian pharaoh and his people were tyrannical butchers.

I have no problem accepting that truth. It's part of history. And you know what? It in no way diminishes my own zest for studying ancient Egypt and its people. I certainly wouldn't have spent the last 20 years doing so, had I found their egos to be offensive. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:44 am 
Egyptian Architect
Offline

Joined:Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts:110
Location: Oregon
I spent a full day and part of another at the Cairo Museum in May of 1990. At that time it was dingy and ill kept, and the antiquities were viewable in ancient and dusty glass cases. Everything pertaining to King Tut was jumbled together on the second floor. From friends who visited later, I heard that, soon after, all this began to change.

One of the inspirations was the (then) new field museum in Luxor, which was (is) very modern in format. There were, at that time, already plans underway to build a new and modern museum for the bulk of the collection in Cairo, with the old museum to be used primarily for Tutankhamen's objects and others of the Amarna period.

I really think that great strides have been made in both attitudes as well as advances in technology and expertise among the Egyptians during the past 15 years. Having said that, with the exception of a couple of key objects which, out of fairness, I think should be returned (and here I agree with Claude II about the Nefertiti bust), either to Egypt or whatever other country they were plundered from (e.g. the Elgin marbles really belong back in Greece), I am not comfortable with the idea of everything being all in one place....keeping in mind the possibility of natural disaster or political/religious upheavals, etc...and I think a sound case can be made for the objects actually being safer by being spread out around the world.

Regards,

Niankhkhnum


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:21 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Fri May 13, 2005 10:15 pm
Posts:350
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
From friends who visited later, I heard that, soon after, all this began to change.


I've never been to Egypt but what you said is exactly what I've heard from countless people with whom I've spoken. Egypt appears to be going through a much-needed and welcomed renaissance in attitude and approach with its own antiquities.

Quote:
...keeping in mind the possibility of natural disaster or political/religious upheavals, etc...and I think a sound case can be made for the objects actually being safer by being spread out around the world.


I couldn't agree more. I suppose it's a pleasant thought to imagine all the priceless key antiquities in one place, but it's neither likely nor realistic. And your comment about "political/religious upheavals" is also legitimate, though from what I understand Egypt is one of the most secure and progressive nations in the Middle East. Still, you never know what can happen in a politically or religiously charged environment, such as what Egypt is experiencing at this moment with its own government. I'm glad you said it, though. Many people shy away from saying such things because the overly sensitive are quick to proclaim it "racist." Nonsense. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:24 pm 
Pharaoh
Offline

Joined:Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 am
Posts:574
Location: The palace of Tutness!
:shock: Kmt....there are MANY forums on here alone--probably either in the Pharaohs or coffee lounge sections--in which many people have commented on the "Actual race" of Egyptians, or King Tut, even!!! This is a VERY heated topic in the majority of forums!! It's truely SCARY!!!! :cry:

Some of them CAN be pretty funny, though, because morons tend to come on here, thinking that they can stirr up shit, and think that everyone will actually BOTHER to talk to him/her!! And what's more...they think they sound intelligent, when they are not ONLY insuting and offensive, but thier grammer and spelling SUCK!!! :x .... :shock: ..... :lol: But I think it's funny how dumb they can be, most of the time. :wink: I'm glad that my buds on here actually HAVE intelligence!!!


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 10:13 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Fri May 13, 2005 10:15 pm
Posts:350
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Kmt....there are MANY forums on here alone--probably either in the Pharaohs or coffee lounge sections--in which many people have commented on the "Actual race" of Egyptians


I was specifically referring to the argument over how safe antiquities might be in the hands of modern Egyptians and how people tend to regard this issue as racist, but I know exactly what you're referring to. On other forums I have joined in the debate on the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians more times than I can remember. Too many people want to make it an "all white" or "all black" issue, and either case is patently ridiculous. These are arguments made by the uninformed, people with a politico-social agenda who lack a fundamental understanding of history. I think it is just another example of how advanced and well-established the Egyptians were that their society was so cosmopolitan, a mix of different peoples from different ethinicities, though predominantly Semitic. I'm not scared to debate this. It's worth discussing as long as it is done in a scholarly and mature manner. Those seeking to stir up anger and animosity with this issue are simply wasting the time of those of us with more reason and scope.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 11:07 pm 
Pharaoh
Offline

Joined:Sun May 25, 2003 8:15 am
Posts:501
Man, I just read this post and couldn't believe all the flaming going on and not even one slap on the hand? :?:
I think it is safe to say that Hawass love's his country as he live's within it; and love's it the best he know's how (within it's confinement's). Confinement's is the key word here.
Egypt is basicially a poor country and what thrive's with wealth see's mostly about self and that is what led to the downfall of Ancient Egypt as we know it. Hawass is part of this system; like Clinton and Bush are a part of America's. Politic's, religion and money, thay all, go hand in hand. Look at the Pope's of Rome and learn of their torture to themselve's and other's during their history. It's has never been the same since Constantine. Who ever said religion and politic's don't mix sure didn't catch any of the recent passing of the Pope (eye witness), conclave, Dan Brown Angel's and Demon's All in all I feel that Egypt should welcome help but is relunctant because of the world situation; can't say that I blame them.
Peace out KTO!
bel


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:25 am 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Thu May 05, 2005 8:23 am
Posts:384
Location: Miskolc, Hungary
Guys, it was really interesting to read all these post in' 'Arguing with Claude II' topic and I wondered I should share with my opinion with you :wink: At first, I'd say for a lot of people, Hawass means the egyptologist of nowadays. He did a lot of digging in different tombs and he was in a lot of TV shows and newspapers so I think all Egypt-fans of the globe knows his name. Yes, I know he is too ambitious sometimes and he likes to get a lot of money, but... oh, guys, who not? I confess I always pick up my head when I heard about him in the news. He is a name, and that won't change, though. Plus, as bel said, Hawass really likes Egypt, and that's a good point :wink: So, I think they should bring back to Egypt all the important treasure, jewels, steles, statues and others - there was somewhere a post about Nefertiti's statue in Berlin and the Rosette stone in the British Museum. So I have to say again bel had her/his (sorry...) right: Egypt's a poor country, and the most important mean of subsistence is the tourism. So how can tourist come to Egypt when some of its beautiful things are in other countries? I think all of the important statues, jewels and so on would be bring back to Egypt. Maybe the less important things can be in other countries, but a statue like Nefertiti's - not.

Claude, I hope it was an intelligent post :wink:

Bye for now
~Lostris


Top
 Profile  
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 154 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 11  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


  Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Style by web designer custom , optymalizacja seo pozycjonowanie stron pozycjonowanie
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group