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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:09 am 
Egyptian Architect
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Kiya wrote:
Originally posted by Claude II

Quote:
Well he is a man of many sides and i dont like all of them
But i think that his quest for bringing the acient Egyptian treasures
home to Egypt is one i strongly supports.


The treasures of Egypt don't just belong to Egypt, they belong to the entire world and Hawass should not be allowed to hoard them.
I wouldn't have half the enthuasiam for AE if I hadn't had a chance to experience them first hand in the Brit Museum.


So what you are saying is that the Royal Crown Jewels should be in a Museum
in Baghdad so the Iraqi people would be more interested in
western Royal culture :wink:

This is just another bad excuse for you British to not return stolen
property!!!!

And what are the rest of the world learning in school this days?
It cant be that the only the one who have a Museum near by is
interested in ancient Egypt? Up here in Sweden everyone is educated
in History and we are learning abut Egypt in our 5 year of school
at the age of 11 every Swedish kid knows a little basic abut ancient Egypt


Maybe I am dumb but how can anyone say that its there right to posses
a property that they have found in someone else's back yard?

So if I go to England and find some old historic relief's from
your pre history you think that this should belong in
the Museum of Stockholm?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:56 pm 
Gods/Goddesses
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I was thinking the same thing. This is just like going to my neighbor's house, taking something of their's and take it to my house and say it's mine cuz I found it.

This is one subject I can't let go of. I don't understand how anyone can say Nefertiti should stay in Berlin.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:09 pm 
Pharaoh
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You have to think here, and think carefully.
Claude II wrote:
This is just another bad excuse for you British to not return stolen
property!!!!

We saved the Rosetta stone, and protected it from both the French, Ali and the modern day Egyptians themselves, who destroyed literally thousands of irreplaceable objects. Egypt accepts that Britain is far better equipt to deal with the relics that it has currently than the Cairo Museum would be. Eventually there will come a time to return some of the more important objects- but that time is not now.

If you look at the stuffy Cairo museum, with its overcrammed cases and Japanese tourists climbing over the statues then you'll realise that most of the relics are, at least for the time being, much safer in museums such as the British Museum for the time being.
Claude II wrote:
So if I go to England and find some old historic relief's from your pre history you think that this should belong in
the Museum of Stockholm?

I ask you- would you like your local museum to deal exclusively with local history? I certainly wouldn't. I agree whole-heartedly that the Museum of Stockholm should (and does) posess relics from both Egypt and Britian. It is very essential to have relics from all over the world in the main museums of each country, in order to share knowledge and educate everyone as to the wonders of the world.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:16 pm 
Egyptian Architect
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And the Egytpians are very glad that you did take care of the stone but its
the key to their language one of the most imporant historic relics
for them and to say that Cairo Museum would destroy it really
is to offend them and Dr. Hawass. I am totally convinsed that
this stone would be placed in such good condision at the Museum
and would be one of the proudest thing the Egyptians would have!

And when it comes to educating aspekts, so must i say that those
who really needs to be educated is us :oops: in the western
civilazion who thinks that we are so dumb that if we sent those relics back
where they belong we would not now abut them and Egyptian history!

We can afford te trippto Egypt but the Egyptians cant afford the tripp
to all our countries to be able to see their own historic relics


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:41 am 
Prince/Princess
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Quote:
So what you are saying is that the Royal Crown Jewels should be in a Museum
in Baghdad so the Iraqi people would be more interested in
western Royal culture


NO! YOU just said that! Please do not do me the discourtesy of putting your own words in my mouth!.
We talking about returing items that were removed from Egypt way before our time so RACIST implications like ......



Quote:
This is just another bad excuse for you British to not return stolen
property!!!!



are totally uncalled for. Please keep them out of this site!

They are doing no harm where they are and Egypt does not loose any prestige or glory by sharing them with the rest of the world. It is selfish and greedy to try and keep everything for yourself! If anything it encourages the world to come and see the real Egypt, tombs and temples. Didn't your parents ever teach you to 'share and share alike'?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:48 am 
Egyptian Architect
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Well this seems to be a hot topic :twisted:
Yes SHARE is something good but to steel someone property
and then tell them that they have to share it with you, and that
you would not visit Egypt if not you could go to a museum and see
the bust or the stone???? well how in the :evil: did you end up there
in the first place to steel this objects???

The stone is the KEY... to there language for crying out load :wink:
And you think that this belongs in your Museum :?:

Just make a damn copy of it and send the real thing back cant
understand whats the problem. And to be honest i could say
alot more but it seems like i now understand Europe war history :cry:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:14 am 
Pharaoh
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About your comment that Egyptians cannot afford a trip here to see their own relics, that is true for the majority. Then again they can afford the ridiculously low entrance fees to their ancient temples but I promise you that few of them ever go to visit those, and in all the time I spent in the major Egyptian Museums I never saw a single Egyptian who wasn't working there. If they cared so much about their past and cared about having relics back in their country you would think they'd show a bit more of an interest in what they already have.
Technically when we "stole" a lot of relics we weren't taking it from foreign powers, but from our own vassal states. Remember that Britain had a huge empire at the time and when these relics were "stolen" they were really being moved from one part of the Empire to another, not being taken by one power from another.
What would you say about relics such as the Elgin Marbles, which we bought from a man who had "stolen" them? In the eyes of the Law Britain has paid for them, they belong to us by right but yet the Greek Government demand we give them their marbles back.
I wonder, have you ever been to Egypt? The museum is appalling, badly maintained, stuffy, overcrowded and archaic. Only two rooms were actually post 1930 in their appearance, and that was one small room for four Tutankhamun relics (the mask, 2 coffins and some jewellery) and perhaps the mummy room (which was quite unimpressive save for the mummies themselves). In all the museum was a bitter disappointment and I feel that the Rosetta Stone and Nefertiti's bust would be wasted there, at least in London and Berlin they are protected and admired by thousands of tourists.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:54 am 
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I have been to the Cairo Museum and dont agree with your opinion abut the Museum.

Dont think that the Museum in Berlin is so much better ...
The Museum in London I have not visit so I wont comment on that.

Now to a little example:

When the Nazis hade their "EMPIRE" they collected a lot of treasures
and relics around the world!!! but one they found in Dresden (Sofia Church)

It was a coffin hanging inside the church from its roof with a collection
of coins and jewelry put there by the families burred under the floor
in the church. In 1999 this long lost treasure surfers in Oslo Norway.
The Germans claimed that this was a bit of ancient German history and
they claimed it belonged in Germany with the German people

Now comes the example everyone should follow

The Norwegian government step in and take responsibility
They order the Museum to send the collection back
and so they did and it now once again is where it belong!!

This should they them self think of when they are abusing
the Bust of Nefertiti and when the Egyptian people wants their
History back home where it belongs.

And the History of ancient Egypt belongs to Egypt first of all
the world cant claim it then look the other way for things
that have no money involved :!: Like crises around the world
and we must stop this world police business by your countries
and follow some law an order when we are doing it.
To free people and help people in need is something good
but to do so just to claim there oil and money is bad

"With great power comes big responsibility if one is not up to that
one should give the power to someone else who is"

Guess whos word this is :wink:

Finally I think that Germans and Englishman are nice people
and hope that AMON have mercy on your when you cross the
river :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:25 am 
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So what that Berlin has a bust of Nefertiti! The Cairo museum has a more well-known icon of ancient egypt than Nefertiti, Tut's death mask! So what that the british museum has the Rosetta Stone, so what that a few museums have a few Egyptian relics. Egypt has all the pyramids, all the tombs and all the temples!
They are doing no harm where the are and, as I previously stated, encourage people to visit the real Egypt. If they weren't there I don't think there would be half the enthusiams to visit the real Egypt.
In addition, many people couldn't afford to go to Egypt for real. Museums around the world are their only way of seeing things.
I'm not saying that stealing is right, just to let sleeping dogs lie!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:44 am 
Pharaoh
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So you would like the Museum of Stockholm to contain relics that only relate to your country's limited past?

I thought not.

In response to the Nazi hope of the Reichsmuseum, which was going to contain all the treasures from the Nazi Empire (and I mean everything), naturally I disagree with that. Every country should have some relics from every other country. That's the way it works, and the way it's always worked. It is ludicrous for every country to have all its relics, and for no other countries to have any of them. Otherwise, like you say, the people of each country will not have any foreign relics to see.

The objects in the (fantastic) British museum all bear special significance to Britian herself. Just to take a random example, the coffin of Ankhnesneferibre in the BM was bought by a mad old Earl in the 1800s and used as a dummy-coffin for Prince Edward to 'find' when he visited Egypt. The Shabaqo stone, to take a famous example, was saved by the British after being used as a millstone by the Egyptians- destroying their heritage.

This argument is ridiculous. The Nefertiti bust belongs to the Germans- it is the Berlin Museum's most famed Exhibit, on top of their limited Egyptian collection. What do you want global museums to have that relates to Egypt? Broken Ushabtis? Replica urns? The world needs to know about Egypt- if Napoleon had not brought back relics to France then the chances are that the world would not care, or even know about Egypt. The Egyptians and Muhhamed Ali (who blew up an entire temple when the British disobeyed him) would have done irreversable damage to their country's heritage.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:49 am 
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First of all I agree with almost everything you say and are very happy
that some countries saved those relics among others not so famous!

But to say that Egypt today would destroy there historik relics???
To offend a nation like that is in my viewpoint something you
should think twice abut. I think that Dr. Hawass has showed
that he is more than capable to handle this. Then ofcouse
we have the whole point of this topic! Its the person Hawass
you dont like and to release this relics to him is not an option
for you and your country. I cant say that i am a big fan of his
metods all the time, but i can still support some of his work
and this is such a thing!

But when it comes to this relics we discuss here you cant be serious
when you say that they belong to you? And what abut all other art affects
that travels around the world. They dont need to be hold in one Museum only
The world is alot bigger than London and Berlin and you can produce
a Copy of them in educating purpose. I have never visit the museum
in London and still I know abut your history.

And yes the Museum of Stockholm should not contain Swedish history
only. But is should be visited by other countries history not posses them and keep
them from the rest of the world like your country do!!!

If I must travel to see this relics I really like to see them where they
belong not to a Conquers treasure chamber.

And its ok for a Museum to show replicates of important relics in educating
purpose if necessary but the original should be placed where they belong
The Rosetta Stone is a key relic like the Stone where Excalibur was
placed in to and I think that this object was something you all would
like to se in London not Cairo if it was to be found.

I also comes from a Nation who ones conquered parts of the world
but I think that we Swedes hade a different lesson to be learned.
We are not proud of the wars we hold in Europe and Russia
We have learned that the world is for the people of the world
And that history should be a reminder.

I think that this is all abut money. If you returned the relics
no one would pay attention to your Museums, and that is your
own words! You all say that no one would now abut Egypt's history
and would not be interested??? well how abut the rest of the world
We all learn abut history in school... and when we are old enough
we like to travel to the country who we are interested of...
but when it comes to Egypt I have to travel a cross the world to
see all key relics. So if I was interested in Ancient Egypt history it
would be natural for me to go to Egypt to learn more abut it as it
would for me to go to England to learn more abut ancient english history!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:51 am 
Pharaoh
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For God's sake. Hawass is an egotistical, arrogant nationalist. If it wasn't for the British and the French then he wouldn't have that much of a job as we spent literally millions of pounds excavating what the Egyptians were content in destroying. It hardly seems fair to pump millions of pounds into expeditions and excavations with little or no help from the Egyptian Govermnet and then for them to keep EVERYTHING we find. If Egypt had cared for its history then Egypt would be allowed a claim in excavations, but in all fairness if we ahdn't dug it up it would probably stay disintergrating under the sand still. If the bust of Nefertiti had not been found by a foreign power how many more years would it have laid under the ground? I think Egypt has a lot to thank us for, instead of being selfish and nationalistic. Hawass should be grateful that foreign powers invested so much money into setting up excavations, not condemning us because we kept a small percentage of the actual treasure we found. I just think it is better off in our museums than lying in the earth (where it would have been had we not taken it).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:37 am 
Pharaoh
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Claude II- I am afraid that your cause is both pointless, ridiculous and destined inevitably to fail.

Egypt would be an irrelevant, and unvisited country if it were't for the Europeans. The majority of Western Egyptologists despise Hawass and his methods- personally I cannot wait for his successor to rise to head of the SC of A. My uncle has worked with Mr. Hawass extensively, and his opinions are all too similar to mine, Si-Amun's and the majority of the Western community. Dr. Hawass hasn't shown his capabilities, rather he has shown a repugnant and arrogant egotistical pride for self-glorification which stands before Egypt. He is more interested in promoting himself than what he's in charge of, and I despise him.

Egypt should be grateful that we even bother to preserve what they were willing to sell, steal and trade themselves. Their leaders blew up monuments, sold off priceless relics to the highest bidder and even now are damaging their heritage beyond repair. It would be treason to return these relics to Hawass- unless you want them to be obliterated, lost and forgotten by all.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:55 am 
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Well this was big words and this is the essence of this topic.
Well what you describe is right they did destroy and sell important
historic things, but what country has not done that? And special when
we come to religion, when a stat is hold by imperials that force their
religion and way of living on them they will do many stupid things to
get ride of there occupant, and maybe they destroyed this temple because
you should not have the richness of them when they self could not?

As I written before, for your countries to have saved those object the
whole world inclusive Dr. Hawass is grateful but this is a time no longer
existing... Cant imaging that we see the Germans as Nazis anymore
Or British as Colonists

I understand that you British people have a hard time to understand this
because you have never been occupied by a foreign country and have
never lived under those circumstances...

But when you say that its all abut Dr. Hawass then I understand
when there is a new man in his position things are different...
Just because you dont like the man you want give him credit
for bringing the stolen relics home! (Sounds like the Arafat discussion :wink: )

Is not your heart in the ancient history of Egypt? because its not
the Ancient history of "Europe the conquer" we are interested in :roll:

And we are not talking abut emptying this Museum we are talking abut
very important key relics like the Bust of Nefertiti who should stand
beside her King

Why are the half that dont like him so more important then the
half who do like him? Could it be that the half who dont like him
are Germans, British and France Egyptologist ???

And you all go by my questions in nice way to avoid the
conflict... If there was some truth in our history and Excalibur
was indeed put in a stone... and this stone hade been removed
from England when you where occupied would you not
want it back???? dont you think that is should belong to You!!

And to this crap abut the museum in Cairo... If you invested so
many million £ in tomb robbing why not invest a few in the Museum
and make sure that the Museum could take care of this relics.
But there is no willing to do that because you cant give
your imperial pride the needs trough a fine helping hand like that

I am truly sorry to see that you have such pride in your dark ages
of you countries history and to finally release that you are not
true ancient Egyptian history lovers but its all abut imperial
thinking and that you still want to be the masters of the world

I know this is strong word but what can I say. When people
makes this a personal vendetta against one man as the
final excuse to not do what is right....


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:05 pm 
Pharaoh
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But it isn't right. If we return the objects that are just as much a part of our history as theirs then everything may as well be returned to its original resting place- and that would just be ridiculous. Museums would be boring and pointless to visit. Everyone would have to fly to other countries to learn about them. You neglect the poor London populace- how would they see Egyptian relics?


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