All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 

Sitre
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:20 am 
Looking on these geneology sites at Amarna family trees I noticed that all of them seem to have placed Sitre as the daughter of Kiya's unnamed daughter (I hope that just made sense :? ). Anyways, does anybody know anything about this? Is there any evidence?


Top
  
 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:25 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Sat Jul 06, 2002 4:05 pm
Posts:342
Location: Missouri
I didn't even know Kiya had daughters, let alone a granddaughter!


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:24 pm 
Egyptian Architect
Offline

Joined:Mon Dec 02, 2002 4:48 pm
Posts:153
Location: Michigan
how would they know that she had a granddaughter if she they dont even know for sure if she had a daughter?


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:57 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:33 am
Posts:399
Location: Canada
Kiya did have a daughter, they're shown together in a few pictures. The girl's name however has been lost. I've seen the Sitre theory too but I don't know where it came from. I've seen sites with pictures of this "Kiya-Tasherit" (as people sometimes call her) but I can't find them at the moment. Here's an example of one of these geneology sites:

http://www.b17.com/family/lwp/ged2html/d0073/I332.html [/i]


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:40 am 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:08 am
Posts:442
Location: Derby
Are we talking about Sitre as in wife of Ramses I? Interesting! I knew Kiya had children that she is pictured with at Amarna.
All sources i'm aware of state that Ramses I and Seti I both married within their own social circle, by that I mean, they married commonors. Both of them were non royal therefore sitre would have been non-royal also.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:13 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:33 am
Posts:399
Location: Canada
Could explain why so little is known about her though. Maybe Ramses didn't want to be associated with "the heretic" in any way.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:26 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:08 am
Posts:442
Location: Derby
Maybe so but both him, Seti I and Ramses II both thought of Horemheb as the founder of their dynasty as he was married to nefertiti's sister.


Top
 Profile  
 

Who is Sitra?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:11 am 
In Nicolas Grimal's A History of Ancient Egypt, Blackwell Publisher Ltd, (1994) page 245. He has Sitra as being the daughter of a soldier. He spells her name as Satre. When this spelling is used we can see why others rewrite it as Sitra. Sat is Egyptian for daughter, Re is the Sun God; to whom Pharaoh goes to when he is dies. Re is the King of Gods so we can, if using Satre read her name, to be the Daughter of the King of Gods. Akhenaten worshipped Aten-Re as the sun disk. The sundisk that ordinary Egyptians believed that Re towed across the sky during the day in his Divine Boat.
The geneologies that are using Sitra, the daughter of some princess, the granddaughter of Akhenaten and Kiya are playing upon the popularity of Kiya in modern culture. They can not name the princess, or the father, and if Sitra was the granddaughter of Akhenaten and Kiya she might have been a noble. But she was no daughter of the Sun God.

I understand most folks believe that Queen Ankhesenamun died shortly after her so called marriage to her presumed grandfather Ay. I don't. Anymore than i believe that all of the Amarna Princess' died at the time of Akhenaten except for Ankhesenamun. It is just to easy for the scholars, and life is rarely that easy for anyone.

When Tutankhamun died, he left his widow, the daughter of Akhenaten, Nefertiti, granddaughter of Queen Tiye, and of the line that gave Egypt it's first woman Pharaoh. A more noble woman could not have existed. By right of birth, and annoinment as Divine Queen she had the right to have laid claim to being the Daughter of the Sun God.

Ever wonder like the scholars that kill off all of Akhenaten's children. Just how Ay, Horemheb, Ramessess I managed to rule as the Divine Pharaoh none of whom have a drop of royal blood? Oh i know they give us the story well they were all military men. Okay right they wouldn't be the first or the last. But really Horemheb chosed Ramessess I because he had a son, and a grandson! WOW was Egypt so devoid of fathers, sons, and grandfathers in the military? Of course not. When i ask the scholars i get no answer.

Ramesses I marriage to Satre might have done more than his having a son and grandson. I hear folks yelling but she married her grandfather and died not long afterwards. Right

Consider this, as the most powerful woman in Egypt she didn't have to marry anyone that didn't please her. She could have even ruled in her own right. However for some reason after Hatshepsut the 18th Dynasty men didn't seem to want a woman Pharaoh. Near equals on the throne as in Tiye, Nefertiti okay but woman rule? That just distrubed Maat to much and as events were showing Maat was still distrubed in Egypt when Tutankhamun died.

Horemheb was needed in the field against the Hittite enemy that was chewing away at Egypt's northern most borders. Egypt didn't need to lose another Pharaoh and Horemheb was Tutankhamun's chosen successor. With him in the field, Queen Ankhesenamun might have allowed Ay, who as Tutankhamun's Grand Vizier. Would have stood in proxy for him in temple duties many times to assume the titles and duties of Pharaoh not as her husband! But as her grandfather. Just because there is a seal bearing their royal names doesn't mean marriage; it means a co-rule at the most, marriage is assuming things that are not given.

Ramesses I would have been about the same age as Ankhesenamun. His early years of service in the field with Horemheb and her husband Tut might have made him seem not so much a servant as Ay, or Horemheb men of the older generations.

Something, someone held Egypt secure in it's return to the old Gods as Ay interceeded with the Gods, as Horemheb fought Egypt's Hittite enemies aboard, and corrupt officals within Egypt. Who better but Isis incarnated as Ankhesenamun now known as only Satre, wife of a humble soldier, and high palace offical, as loyal to Egypt as anyother woman. She the daughter of the Criminal, barren wife of Tutankhamen, the granddaughter of Amenophis III and his Queen Tiye. She might have wished at times to have been dead but i doubt fate would have been so kind.

If this is considered one might ask. Well, why didn't Ramesses I assume the throne when Ay died after a brief 4 years upon the it? Good question, the answer is another question. Why would Satre, once child Queen married to a child King push her own happy growing family back into the midsts of Royal life? Horus himself had chosed Horemheb to rule he had to rule to restore full Maat. With Maat restored her new family blessed by both Ay and Horemheb might rule Egypt again and blot the horror of her young life away. At the very least they might live.

It is interesting to note that Ay's Queen was his dead wife, and Horemheb's wives were buried in his non-royal Saqqara tomb, infering he ruled mostly without a living Queen like Ay. With Ankhesenamun living quietly as Satre, the lack of a ruling Queen wouldn't have been a problem. She was Queen, and kings had lots of Queens. I liken this to Isis hiding in the rushes bringing up Horus, the true King of Egypt. Isis was still Isis, Ankhesenamun as Satre was still Ankhesenamun, Queen of Egypt, and Seti was her son, and he became the Horus King of Egypt.


Another reason I prefer this theory than the others where everyone dies but the King's men; is the totality of the destruction of the monuments, the city of Akhenaten, his reign, his name. His hereitic attempts ruined his family and Ankhesenamun's future as well. Poor old Horemheb blamed for the murder of Hittite's prince, having to suffer Ay as king instead of himself, off fighting in the northern area protecting Egypt's interests there, suffering putting all right the corruption of Egypt itself, no family to speak of except dead wives,(and one wife that dies in childbirth?) and he takes the time to so destroy the remains of Akhenaten?

Myself, i see the destruction, as the revenage of a woman that bore great hatred towards a belief that so destroyed her life. A woman that wanted to make sure that it would never touch, the ones she had come to love as it had the ones she had buried. Satre, daughter of the Sun King, Akhenaten, and Nefertiti, or Sitra granddaughter of Akhenaten, and a secondary wife the daughter of who?


Until the scholars, can prove me wrong, i know which one i am going with. LOL everyone dies to make life easy for Victorian and modern scholars LOL
Right!


Top
  
 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:04 am 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:08 am
Posts:442
Location: Derby
Ok even if you believe Ankhesenamun didn't die shortly after Tut she was by no means the first female pharaoh. Apart from Meriates in Dynasty 0/1 and Khentkawes Dynasty 4 I think(These women the scolars are not sure about, they may have been great wives) we have Nitocris end of the 6th dynasty, Sobeknefru end of the 12th, Hatshepsut to name a few.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:51 am 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Fri May 30, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts:345
Location: Miskolc, Hungary
Wow, this is an interesting theory! I really like it. But if Sethi was Ankhesenamun's son, he died quite young, I mean, Tut died in 1325 BCE and if Ankhesenamun married to Ramesses and had a son in the next year then makes Sethi only 45 at the time of his death i 1279. (Does anyone know how old was he when he died? The mummy has been found, surely there were some examinations.)

Also, it is suspected that Isetnofret was related to Horemheb and Nefertari was related to Ay. It seems Ramesses really wanted to marry into the old royal family. :)

(Sorry if I made errors in these calculations, I've never been good at counting in BCE numbers. :)


Top
 Profile  
 

The age of Seti's I at death
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:19 am 
Hi Meritaten,

You made a excellent point in asking about Seti's age. Below is an quote from http://www.secker.fsbusiness.co.uk/seti1.htm

"From historical evidence, we can assume that Seti had been between 34-39 when he died, and this was confirmed in the 1970s, when x-rays suggested an age of 35-40."

Which puts him the age group of being the son of Ankhesenamun under the name of Satre.

In Pharaoh Triumphant The life and times of Ramesses II, by K.A. Kitchen, Benben Publications 1985. pg 18. Dr. Kitchen places Seti's birth at about the time Horemheb accession to the throne.


Top
  
 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:20 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:08 am
Posts:442
Location: Derby
Its a very interesting theory but one I can subscribe to. Why would a divinely appointed queen, Ankhesenamun, allow her status to be lowered by being known as the simple daughter of a noble instead of the daughter of a pharaoh? Ok people wanted to forget the amarna era but just by being queen she reminds people of who she was. I do think it far more likely that she was murdered, as I believe tut was also. Whether or not by Ay of Horemheb remains to be seen but I lean in the direction of horemheb.
I do think your theory on Ay being co ruler but not pharaoh interesting and plausible but unlikely. There are so many permutations to this: If you believe that Ay wanted the throne then he was responsible for the death of the hittite prince Zananza but in that case you would have to allow for the him and ankhesenamun to have been married. Ay surely would have wanted to found his own dynasty. The co ruler, not husband, theory works if there is an heir who is maybe too young to take control and needed guidance until he attained adulthood. If there is no heir then Ay as co ruler not husband would be pointless they desparately needed a male heir, especially if it was Horemheb and not ay who killed the hittite prince. Ankhesenamun and his family may have been trying to curtail the ambitions of horemheb.


Top
 Profile  
 

Satre is Ankhesenamun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 9:58 am 
Hi Kiya, thanks for your observations. i hope my answers to your questions answer them.

One by changing her name from Ankhesenamun to Satre, she aknowleged that the end of her father's and husband's reigns meant less to her than the future. Satre itself can be translated to daughter of the Sun God. Ankhesenamun the daughter, wife of Pharaoh and annointed Queen in her own right. Surely met the conditions of being considered as the daughter of the Sun God. Even with her change in name no one at court could or would forget that she was the still living member of a long ago court. It would only be by her command that it wasn't brought up often.

As for Tutankhamun being murdered by Ay, and his designs on Ankhesenamun this theory was popular in the 1930's and was brought to the reading public in the Lost Queen of Egypt by Lucile Morrison, Lippincott Publishers, 1937. A great book of fiction i read many many times over my lifetime. There is no proof that Mrs. Morrison's and the theory she wrote about has any basis in truth. Although by her work, she popularized the theory which stills floats around like it was gospel fact.

In William H. Stiebing, Jr's book Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture, Longman Publisher, 2003. pg. 188 in talking about the xray's of Tut and the possible back of the skull fracture (and not all pathologists agree there is any) "Moreover, if there was such an injury, it could have been the result of battle rather than murder. Tutankhamun was 18-19 years old when he died, certainly old enough to assume personal leadership of Egypt's armies.... The boy pharaoh who had reestablished Egypt's traditional religion may have lost his life trying to restore her traditional empire as well."

This makes far more sense to me Kiya than an old man, a very old man murdering the boy he has served faithfully for almost 10 years so he could rule and marry the widow, who might have been his own granddaughter!

Another note is that Crown Prince Ramesses II, was leading by himself battles by the age of 16!

Ay wanted to found his own dynasty? He had no living Queen, and no living children. It is said Horemheb married his daughter, i remind you her body was found in Horemheb's non-royal tomb at Saqqura not in the Valley of Kings. Where does a very old man by the standards of his time found a dynasty when his Queen is dead, and he has no children. He didn't make Ankhesenamun his Queen. He had no plans to have more children by her or he couldn't have murder her as the theory goes. He married no other woman after he became Pharaoh or if he did he didn't make her his Queen, and had no children with her. How could he found a dynasty?

Horemheb is a greatly put upon man. His efforts on behalf of his nation as both warrior and Pharaoh are overshadowed by wild rumors of people who didn't live any where near his time. Tutankhamun trusted him to the point he named him his heir. I am sorry i don't agree that there was a desperate need for a heir. You forget that one of the titles of Horemheb was Chosen of Horus of Nekhen (aka Hierakonpolis). One of Egypt's most ancient sites and very heavily involved in the choosing of early Egypt's first Pharaohs. The important thing wasn't the need of Ankhesenamun to have a male heir at the point of Ay's corule. Because at that time the God Chosen Heir was fighting at the border. The important thing was to not have another dead Pharaoh on the front! Ay was never anything but a stopgap Pharaoh one familiar to the Gods and who could serve them as Pharaoh.

Until it was safe for Horemheb to leave the border and return home to rule as the Horus of Nekhen had decreed. Horemheb like Ay before him, had no living Queen or children when he came to the throne nor after he came to the throne. Unless you ascribe to Dr. Rohl's theory that he gave his only daughter not to his successor but to Solomon. I don't ascribe to that theory myself. That folks do only goes to underscore the heights of abuse that the late 18th Dynasty suffers at the hands of writers and the scholars that read them. Ankhesenamun had proven hersef fertile, what she needed was a man that wasn't cursed as her husband had been cursed with the taint of Amarna. Ay and Horemheb were both tainted with Amarna.

Yes i know Ankhesenamun was tainted with Amarna just as much as Tutankhamun, Horemheb, and Ay. However she was a woman, not a man and Egyptian public life was dominated by men not women. It is being female that makes the difference in this case.

Murdering Pharaoh wasn't a thing that happened very often in Ancient Egypt. Right off hand i can't think of any Pharaoh that was. Perhaps you know of one that was? Not including any of the rumored murders of Smenkhkara, Akhenaten, or Tutankhamun please. In Ramesses III's time there was a plot to murder him and put his son on the throne. But it was a son not a servant, and the plot went only to court when it was found out. This is the only for sure attempt on Pharaoh's life i can recall right now.

When Tutankhamun died, it showed Maat, that comsic order Pharaoh alone as responsible for was still out of balance. Ankhesenamun by chosing, to fade into the background like a Queen of earlier non 18th Dynasty type, by chosing a widower childless old man to rule as Pharaoh. While her best military man was saving Egypt from Hittite advances. Showed the same courage that her female ancestors had showed. When they came forward to assist their sons and husbands in the battles against the Hyksos. Maat by her sarcifices became balanced, and at the appropriate time a heir was born.

What folks don't realize when they talk about Ay, Horemheb wanting to start their own dynasty is there was no attempt. By either of them of having more children even after they came to the throne to start that dynasty. Horemheb had, like Ay, only a dead Queen. Egypt needed a Queen as much as a Pharaoh believe it or not. Why didn't they need a living Queen when they ruled? Because i contend they did have one Satre the daughter of Akhenaten, the fertile but barren wife of Tutankhamun, and the wife of Ramesses I the future Pharaoh.


Top
  
 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:03 pm 
You make a lot of interesting points there:-) Unfortunately I don't have time to respond to them all.

Quote:
Ever wonder like the scholars that kill off all of Akhenaten's children. Just how Ay, Horemheb, Ramessess I managed to rule as the Divine Pharaoh none of whom have a drop of royal blood? Oh i know they give us the story well they were all military men. Okay right they wouldn't be the first or the last. But really Horemheb chosed Ramessess I because he had a son, and a grandson! WOW was Egypt so devoid of fathers, sons, and grandfathers in the military? Of course not. When i ask the scholars i get no answer.
Quote:

Ramses I was Head of the army at that time. Maybe there were plenty of high ranking military men in the army at that time but Ramses I ranked the highest plus he had the son and gandson.

Yes Ay had served Tut faithfully for nine years but he also served Akhenaten before that and possibly Amenhotep III before that in his capacity as brother in law to the king. My point is maybe he was sick of his family members having all the power. His sister becomes Great Royal Wife, as does his possibly daighter Nefertiti, thankfully he didn't live to see Mutnodmet follow her elder sisters lead. Maybe jealousy and resentment were festering away inside of him and he finally decided he wanted some of the glory for himself.

How do we know that Ay and Horemheb made no attempt to father an air. Unless they recorded their sexual exploits we cannot know for sure but it would have been natural and logical for a king to want to perpetuate his line with an hier of his own blood. Akhnesenamun did not have a great track record with healthy children, who knows, maybe she just wasn't capable of carrying a healthy child to term.


Top
  
 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:05 pm 
Prince/Princess
Offline

Joined:Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:08 am
Posts:442
Location: Derby
Sorry that last message was posted by me, this site seems to have a probably registering my user name.


Top
 Profile  
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


  Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Style by web designer custom , optymalizacja seo pozycjonowanie stron pozycjonowanie
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group