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Looking for Heiratic text
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:34 pm 
Tomb Robber
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Location: Gunnison, Colorado
Does anyone know a source of the heiratic text for the trial of Rameses III's queen? I recently saw a documentary by Bob Briar on this conspiracy and he showed a copy of the trial text, so it must be available out there somewhere.

I'm trying to learn to read Heiratic, and this looked like an interesting text to dig into. (Actually, I'm a real beginner in Heiratic, and have more practice with deciphering hieroglyphs -- and can always use help there as well!)

Thanks!

--Djehuty


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:26 am 
Pharaoh
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I didn't see that documentary yet, but it's probably because I'm in Italy and it is not in the programs yet....I'll ask somebody here, we have a good expert about hieratic writings.....may you need also some other good hieratic text? in case I don't find the one about teh trial of RamsesIII 's queen....here in Turin we have very nice papyrus.... :wink:


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Papyrus & heiratic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:11 am 
Tomb Robber
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Thanks for the response.

I think the reason that heiratic has come to interest me more than hieroglyphs is that this form of writing -- or so I've read -- more often tells the story of the average ancient Egyptian -- or at least, the average literate Egyptian!

Any suggestions for sources, papyri or otherwise, would be be greatly appreciated.

I'm self-taught, like many others I see on this discussion list, and as a result, I suspect there are important (probably huge!) holes in my education. The documentary I was talking about related such an interesting story that I thought it would be fun to see the original and to work with that text.

Again, thanks for the response.

Cheers,

-- Djehwty


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:06 am 
Pharaoh
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I don't mean to sound supercilious or anything, but a trial text is probably not the easiest text to begin with. I expect that most Egyptologists would have great difficulty in translating such an odd text, as it probably uses lots of unusual vocabulary that would be nigh impossible to find (and Budge is useless for that sort of thing). Are you sure that this is the best place to start? Unless you could find an interlinear translation, or you are a very skilled translator then I believe that the text may be quite tricky to get to grips with. Especially considering the hieratic language is not just comprised of simplified hieroglyphs but instead a mesh of complex joined characters and symbols. On the page, hastily scrawled texts look very different to those you find in hieratic exercise books, where all the symbols are neatly separated and uniform. Simple writings in hieratic are hard enough to decode- the scribes rarely have good handwriting. This is the sort of thing that you’d be looking at, only with really obscure words, odd bits of grammar that probably don’t feature until the end of Gardiner’s, and much more (link).Even in the hieroglyphs it is stunningly complex and difficult. I most certainly wouldn’t be able to do it without a vocab list of some sort, and hopefully a hieroglyphic transcription (link). Basically, it is not at all easy.

It might be an idea to get hold of an interlinear translation, a transcription, vocabulary list and a hieroglyphic transcription if you really want to get stuck into the text. Might I suggest that you get a copy of the Book of the Dead of Nebseni, or any other hieratic versions of the BOTD. That is what helped me to begin hieratic, as you can easily compare the hieroglyphs with the hieratic, and get a feel for how they differ. The command of a few glyphs, or being able to read cartouches will not enable you to translate immensely complex texts. Sorry if I have the wrong idea, but this is my advice.


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BOTD and Hieratic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:19 pm 
Tomb Robber
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(Forgive me if this is a repeat posting -- my computer locked down and it didn;' look like the posting went through.)

Thanks for the thoughful reply. And I think you point out a number of really valid points, particularly as relates to arcane judicial language and handwriting variants. Maybe the trial text would be a bit much. That said (and confessed), I've been a student of Middle Egyptian hieroglyphic writing and texts for about five years now, and have probably an intermediate grasp of Ancient Egyptian grammar (I started with Manley and Collier's book, followed by intense study of Gardner's sign list, and went on to other grammars, etc.), but I've gotten kind of bored with reading offical proclamations, "billboard" pharoanic testimonies, and military accounts, and have become much more interested in learning to read the accounts or records of the lives of nonroyal Egyptians.

I've already worked through Sheldon Lee Gosline's primer, _Writing Late Eguptian Hieratic_, and have downloaded and several translated scattered letters, etc., that I've found on the Web (I'm always looking for more sources, however, and if you know of others, I'd love to have you share them).

I have a copy of BOTD, and getting hold of a hieratic version sounds like a promising idea. Can you suggest a source for BOTD in hieratic?

Thanks again for your reply. I didn't think it sounded "supercilious" at all -- just realitistic! :wink:

Cheers,

Djehwty


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:35 am 
Pharaoh
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Right, your particularly modest opening threw me off track- you certainly sound quite experienced! Might I suggest then that you have a look at the story of Sinuhe, from which that hieratic extract. I had a go at it, and whilst most of it is slightly beyond me, I did manage to have a bit of fun with it. Lots of texts, most with hieratic originals, can be found at: http://www.rostau.org.uk/AEgyptian-L/textindex.html

Oh, and try this for a hieratic BOTD. You can zoom in and everything, and the resolution can be increased easily: http://etc.princeton.edu/mrsid/bin/show ... =rollA.sid

Good luck.


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"experience"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:22 pm 
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"Experienced." Hm, well, experienced at being humbled when I try to read Egyptian texts, anyway!

Thanks for writing me back with suggestions -- just what I was looking for.

By the way, you're obviously no beginner yourself. Maybe we can use each other as resources if we get hung up on something. I don't promise to be able to help, but sometimes it's nice to compare notes.


Thanks again.

--Djehwty


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