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Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:04 am 
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DK28,
I put this info. here and not in religion 101 because that has been my bent since day one; as is my claim to be incarnate of Hatshepsut. I thought it was coincidental that the Freemason's philosophy goes back to Ancient Egypt. It was a link that I made w/out clarifiying. Sorry for the confusion.

Back on topic.
Hatshepsut:
Cowgoddess Hathor was the beloved deity who decided at birth the fate of every new born child. Queen Hatshepsut - Metropolitian Museum in New York stands a statue that once stood guard before her memorial Chapel at Deir El-Bahari in Western Thebes. It is one of many Hatshepsut had carved of herself in the image of the sphinx, the god that was alway's male and whose shape she as a woman (many claimed) had no right to assume. Although their were Queen's (ruler's before her). But she claimed that right, as she did the right to wear male clothing from her childhood, and with another symbol of divine masculine power, the unbecoming beard that is often shown strapped to her delicately rounded chin.
Thutmose I - Hatshepsut's father mean's he who is born of the moon God.
Her mother Amose was descended from a royal line so ancient that her earliest known ancestor was the sun. So the child Hatshepsut knew herself to be born w/vested rights in day and night, the two worlds of heaven and earth and the 2 Egypt's. Hatshepsut mean's "Chieftan of noble women".
Defying all that had gone on before in Egypt history Thutmose I placed his daughter, Hatshepsut beside him on the golden throne. The sphinx was alway's male until Hatshepsut. The 100's of statue's she would order made of herself in the guise of the sphinx, w/her pretty face mounted on the body of the lion lined the temple for her God along w/the Myrrh tree's she brought back from Punt.


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when was Nefure Hatshepsut married then. ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:34 am 
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What i want to know was Nefure Hatshepsut married to a Pharaoh when she adopted Moses.

The Old Testament only mentions the daughter of the Pharaoh adopting Moses.

Yet in the Koran it claims that it was the wife of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses and muslims claim this was because Nefure had married a Pharaoh and was a Pharaohs wife when she adopted Moses.

It is claimed she adopted Moses when she was 15. But i have found no real data as to when Nefure became married to that Pharaoh. Before or after she adopted Moses.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:34 am 
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I don't know where you get your information. At this time, there is no reference that is acceptable in scientific circles about any Princess who adopted Moses. Indeed, the very question of Moses is under doubt.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:55 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
I don't know where you get your information. At this time, there is no reference that is acceptable in scientific circles about any Princess who adopted Moses. Indeed, the very question of Moses is under doubt.


Well hello there Osiris 11.
I was pointing out an error in the Koran to a Muslim.

The first concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 28:9). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 2:10 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses. It is important to note here that had Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses, he would have consequently been adopted by Pharaoh himself, making him heir to the throne. This fact alone makes the subsequent story of Moses's capture and exile rather incredulous.

Now the Old Testament states clearly that the Pharaohs daughter adopted Moses. She was Nefure Hatshepsut becoming Hatshepsut when she became queen. Until then she was just a prioncess.

Let me explain that Old Testament Ch2 verse 10. And the child grew and she brought him unto the Pharaohs daughter and he became her son. And she called his name Moses and she said because I drew him out of the water.

But the Koran claims it was Princess Hatshepsut, the queen who adopted Moses. According to this historical progression Moses was adopted by Princess Hatshepsut, the daughter of Pharaoh Amenhotep I, who died in -1526. In -1525, when she was 15, Moses adopted by Hatshepsut, nursed and possibly educated by his mother Jochebed. This was a year after Pharaoh Thutmose I had taken the throne.

In order to become Pharaoh, a man, perhaps even her brother, must marry the daughter of the Pharaoh who left the throne vacant.
Thus, as well as being the daughter of the Pharaoh (out going) she was the wife of the extant Pharaoh, still without issue because he had only been married for one year. Nefure Hatsheput was the dominant political power through two generations, losing her political grip to Pharaoh Thutmose III in -1483, when he was 32 and she was 57.

This puts the verse Exodus 2:10 into context. The one who adopted Moses, as well as being the recently departed Pharaoh's daughter, was the brand new Pharaoh's wife.

So the Koran says the Pharaohs queen and the Old Testament says the Pharaohs daughter. So i need a Time line to when Nefure Hatsheput got married to the Pharaoh. Data on this subject is plentiful until you try and get some dates. Then as i was searching i came upon this web site and you all seem to be discussing the similar issues.

If it is proven that Nefure Hatsheput was not married when she adopted Moses then a serious error is found in the Koran. The Sura 4:82 says do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepency therein.

The Challenge of this Sura is to find just one error in the Koran which would then prove the Koran did not come from God. I namjed a list of errors and this matter of who adopted Moses was one of them. Was it the Pharaohs daughter as Old Testament text states clearly or was this daughter also married to a Pharaoh at that Time.

I just thought someone here may know the Timelines and if the Pharaohs daughter was already married to a Pharaoh at that Time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:26 am 
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Princess Neferu-Re Hepshepsut was the half-sister of Tothmose III, and POSSIBLY his wife.
She dieid during Hapshepsut's 11th year. Some Egyptologists think that she MAY have been Amenhotep III's mother, but her very young age makes this doubtful.
I appreciate reading of your scholarship concerning the Bible and the Koran, but basing your beliefs on these two works is very risky. The Koran is known to be full of exaggerations and errors, and the Bible is a complation of oral traditions from the Hebrew people.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:57 am 
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Thought you might be interested in this:

Normally, the literary motif runs that a child is foretold that will
be greater than the king. To avoid this, the king either attempts to
kill the child, or, fearing divine retribution, exposes the child in
some fashion so it will die under natural causes (such as setting the
child out to sea (Perseus and Danae in Greek myth), exposing on a
mountain (Oedipus in Greek literature, Romulus and Remus in Latin
literature), etc.).

The Sargon birth story also regards a young child pulled from the
river and eventually made king. The cuneiform library of
Assurbanipal has furnished to scholars a legend of the birth of
Sargon of Agade (a Babylonian king who, according to Nabonidos, ruled
about 3800 B.C.) which is strikingly parallel to the story of the
secret birth of Moses and of his exposure on the Nile. The legend
runs:

"Sargon, the powerful king, King of Agade am I. My mother was of low
degree; my father I did not know. The brother of my father dwelt in
the mountain. My city was Azupirani, which is situated on the bank of
the Euphrates. My humble mother conceived me; in secret she bore me.
She placed me in a boat of reeds; with bitumen my door she closed.
She entrusted me to the river, which did not overwhelm me. The river
bore me along; to Akki the irrigator it carried me. Akki the
irrigator in goodness . . . brought me to land. Akki the irrigator as
his son brought me up. Akki the irrigator his gardener appointed me.
While I was gardener, Ishtar loved me . . . four years I ruled the
kingdom."

The parallelism between this narrative and the story of the exposure
of Moses is thought by many scholars to be too close to be accidental.

Source:<http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=830&letter=M>

> especially since the abandoned-baby-who-becomes-the-leader story is
also told of Romulus and Remus, Oedipus, Sargon of Agade, and I think
Gilgamesh (it's one of those Washington-and-the-cherry-tree sorts of
things that gets linked to influential people). But I think it would
be interesting to see just how much history is hiding in the stories.<

In regards to the variety of foreign exodus stories, and their
possible sources in Egyptian literature, history, and tradition, I
also suggest the following form and textual criticism works relating
to Old Testament literature, such as

Currid, J. and Kitchen, K. A. 1997. _Ancient Egypt and the Old
Testament_. Philadelphia: Baker Book House.

House, P. _Beyond Form Criticism: Essays in Old Testament Literary
Criticism._ 1992. Sources for Biblical and Theological Study. Old
Testament 2. New York: Eisenbrauns.

Rappoport, A. and Patai, R. 1966. _Myth and Legend of Ancient Israel_.
New York: Ktav Publishing.

HTH.

Regards --

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:09 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
Princess Neferu-Re Hepshepsut was the half-sister of Tothmose III, and POSSIBLY his wife.
She died during Hapshepsut's 11th year. Some Egyptologists think that she MAY have been Amenhotep III's mother, but her very young age makes this doubtful.

I appreciate reading of your scholarship concerning the Bible and the Koran, but basing your beliefs on these two works is very risky. The Koran is known to be full of exaggerations and errors, and the Bible is a complation of oral traditions from the Hebrew people.


Starjade says: Yes it pleased me to see that you know that the Koran is full of errors and discrepencies. I was arguing that same point to some knowledgeable Muslims. Via the Sura 4:82. I proved the Koran did not come from God as they believed. They brought up the conversation about Hapshepsut being married at the Time she was claimed to have found Moses. A statement i have learned is true. Not in her being married when she found Moses but in that it was she who adopted Moses.

The debate then was if she was married when she found Moses.

As I have mentioned this matter to you i thought i would post here my coclusions that I then replied to those Muslims. I think you may find it interesting. There is still much research to be done on the matter though.

This is part of the conversation I was having with a Muslim called Hanifan. He claimed that it was the Pharaohs wife who adopted Moses whereas the Old Testament says it was the Pharaohs daughter.


Well hello again Hanifan. Well now I have been doing some research on Hatshepsut. I was not aware that she was married to a Pharaoh at the Time she adopted Moses as you claimed. If that had been so then that would have been a good explanation. As you may know most records of Nefure Hatshepsut have been erased and defaced. But I did find that lineage most interesting. The dates of these events are still some what cloudy and require a more deeper research as most historians give different dates for certain events and so it is clear they don’t really know either. I am however still looking and may update at a later Time my findings.

As the complicated story goes the dates being uncertain and only approximates. Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1 was called Pharaoh but was co regent to Pharaoh Ahmosis who lived in Thebes in Memphis. The Pharaoh Ahmisis was the main ruler of Egypt and so Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. would only be the main ruling Pharaoh after the death of the Pharaoh Ahmosis.

Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. had heard the rumours of how troubles would come to Egypt from the Hebrew nation and so he ordered the deaths of all the first born sons to prevent that event from ever occurring. However oddly one year would pass and those sons of the Hebrew nation would be allowed to live and then the next year the first born was to die. So they alternated these deaths this way so as not to create more problems for them selves. Aaron the brother of Moses was born in the year that those first born were to be saved and Moses was born in the year that those first born were to die. So his mother placed him in a basket and set him lose to fate on the Nile. His sister followed the basket and saw the Pharaohs daughter Nefure discover the babe and she decided to keep the child and adopt it.

As far as I can see there is no evidence though that at this Time that Nefure was married as it claims in the Koran. So the Old Testament is correct in saying it was the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses even though the Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 was only a co regent.

Nefure was the only surviving daughter of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. Nefure she convinced her father to make her little adopted child Moses his future heir. So Moses was set up to become the future King of all Egypt. Moses became known as Senmut which means mothers brother. It is a named derived from the tale of Osiris and Horus but I will not be talking about that. Historians studies show that Moses came to live in the palace at about 12 years Old about the same Time that his adopted Grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. became main emporer over the whole of Egypt. At this Time they had moved from the palace at Memphis where the Co regent ruled and went to Thebes where the main Palace was.

At about the age of 18 Moses was designated the future heir apparent with his mother Nefure as his regent. She was now given the additional royal name of “Hatshepsut” and was then referred to as Queen instead of princess. Once someone was designated as the future heir to the throne his inscriptions refer to him as “King”. Moses was elevated to this position of heir apparent when he was 24 years old. When Moses became about 33 years old he was designated as being the Crown Prince and became known as Thutmoses 11. The numbers after the Egyptian Kings names are simply designations given to them by Egyptologists to identify each succeeding person of the same name. When Moses was 40 he killed and Egyptian and so as history claims Moses had to flee Egypt.

To prevent the loss of the Crown to another family Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. who clearly was still alive otherwise Moses would have been crowned King Pharaoh. Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. married his daughter off to her younger half brother Thutmose who became called Thutmose the 11 and that was how Nefure Hatshepsut became married.

There are claims that the father of Nefure / Hatshepsut had died when she was 15 yet this cannot be true for Moses fled Egypt when he was 40 and history speaks of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. being alive at that Time. In fact if he had died then Moses would have been ruling Egypt as the emperor Pharaoh. But he was not that ruler of Egypt because his adopted grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. was still alive.

Of course records of these times are obscure but common sense clearly does indicate that Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. was alive and well long after Moses had become heir apparent. And even when he had fled Egypt.

There is no solid evidence that I have seen that claims that Nefure / Hatshepsut was married at the Time she found Moses. The Egyptian records of these times are annoyingly complicated and difficult for people to understand. In 1488 six years prior to her death all records of Nefure / Hatshepsut ceased.

So it does seem clear at this Time that the Koran claiming that it was the wife of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses is wrong. Had Nefure / Hatshepsut been married then her husband would have become that heir apparent by that marriage. Yet history says that it was Moses who became Heir apparent. And it does appear that Nefure had then to marry her half brother because Moses had fled Egypt.

As I have said I am still looking into this matter but it does seem clear that at the Time that the Pharaohs daughter found Moses she was not then married and so the Koran is in an understandable error. Especially with the way those Egyptians kept records. When Moses left Egypt he was replaced by another man who took the Egyptian Titles of Moses and became called Thutmose 11 prince of all Egypt. And we all know the rest of the story. As I have said I am still looking into this matter but it is clear the Koran is in error over claiming it was the Pharaohs wife who adopted Moses this was meaning Nefure / Hatshepsut and yet even her own father was only a co Regent Pharaoh. And only became the ruling Emperor when Moses was 12 that is twelve years after Nefure found and adopted Moses thus showing that he could not have died in 1526 as you suggest. The dates of history during these times are obscure however but logic does state that Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. lived a lot longer than historians realise. Of course there was some problem caused by Nefure Hatshepsut that caused people to want to obliterate her name from History making such dating of these Times difficult.

Still logic does go with the story that indicates Nefure was not married at the Time that she found Moses. Making the claim of the Koran to be in error. I will not let this matter drop until I have learned the truth one way or another. You did make a valid point of explanation regarding Nefure being married. But you have not proven that point to be a fact wheras the history of those Times does suggest that at the Time Nefure was not married. This matter needs some deeper researching. The dates of these events from History are unsound you yourself have quoted the death of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. as being 1526. Yet if Nefure had found Moses in 1525 when she was only 15 years old. Then it is a matter of just one year. Whiles history states that Moses was 12 years old when his grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. became ruling emperor Pharaoh of the whole of Egypt. Surely you can see the discrepancy that exists in those dates of the claimed death of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. and the continuing history that then surrounds those Times.


Last edited by Starjade on Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:43 am 
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Thankyou Osiris 11 for that data about The Sargon birth story I found that most interesting. And will look into that story when Time allows. I have had my Time taxed recently discussing the adoption of Moses and I found the liniage of The adoptive Egyption mother most interesting. It seems that Egyptologists are unsure of their dates which was most frustrating but it is clear that Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. who was Nefures father and Moses's adoptive grandfather actually lived to a longer age than historians are crediting.

I already quoted so many errors in the Koran to those Muslims that they already know i proved the Koran did not come from God but in religion Revealtion can be so hard to bear. They are still chewing their gums about it all.

Also did you know by the way. The Koran claims Moses cast his staff down and it turned into a snake. Yet the Old Testament states that it was Aaron that cast his staff down and it turned into a stake. This is yet another error in the Koran that Muslims cannot escape from.

Just as they cannot escape the fact that both Jesus and Muhammad are both claiming themselves to be that very Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.

And the laught there is that Muhammad believed in Jesus and 11 chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the Porphet Jesus is claimed to be. Yet they are unaware that Jesus was claiming himself to be that very Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up which is also the very Prophet that Muhammad is claiming himself to be.

Who said religion cannot be fun. :lol:

I hope you find the data I have found of interest. I was being brief.


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Re: when was Nefure Hatshepsut married then. ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:59 pm 
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Starjade wrote:
What i want to know was Nefure Hatshepsut married to a Pharaoh when she adopted Moses.

The Old Testament only mentions the daughter of the Pharaoh adopting Moses.

Yet in the Koran it claims that it was the wife of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses and muslims claim this was because Nefure had married a Pharaoh and was a Pharaohs wife when she adopted Moses.

It is claimed she adopted Moses when she was 15. But i have found no real data as to when Nefure became married to that Pharaoh. Before or after she adopted Moses.


I do not actually consider is factual to quote from religious book's that were written long after the event's we are discussing. It is a known fact that these book's from which we speak, are as influenced by political power as is the case of "JonBenet Ramsey."
Which simply state's that it is not necessary the TRUTH the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH, so help us GOD.

Therefore in so saying, here is a little inside skinny on the skinny.....
Hatshepsut was a Egyptian queen and became one of the first recorded female rulers when she adopted the full titles of a pharaoh. Hatshepsut was the eldest daughter of the Pharaoh Thutmose I and Queen Ahmose. Thutmose I was the successor of the childless pharaoh, Amenhotep I. Thutmose I was a successful general in the army and married the old Pharaoh's sister Ahmose. Hatshepsut was born around 1502 BC. Her two eldest brothers died in accidents before their father's death. In Egypt only a male could be a pharaoh, however, the bloodline to the throne came from the eldest daughter of the old pharaoh and marriage to her was essential to succeed to the throne. The common practice was for the pharaoh to marry his favorite son to his eldest daughter. Brother sister marriages and even father daughter marriages were accepted in the royal families of ancient Egypt. It is thought that Hatshepsut was about age fifteen when her father died. Hatshepsut was married to her father before his passing at the age of 15 (ironic, don't you think); giving her royal passage. Hatshepsut's then ordered that she be crowned a pharaoh and she adopted the Horus name and false beard. Horus names were used only by male rulers.
Ane to quote her,
"Now my heart turns to and fro, in thinking what will the people say, they who shall see my monument in after years, and shall speak of what I have done."


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Senmut Thutmoses 11 was the Biblical Moses.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:36 am 
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Quote:
Starjade wrote:
What i want to know was Nefure Hatshepsut married to a Pharaoh when she adopted Moses. The Old Testament only mentions the daughter of the Pharaoh adopting Moses. Yet in the Koran it claims that it was the wife of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses and muslims claim this was because Nefure had married a Pharaoh and was a Pharaohs wife when she adopted Moses. It is claimed she adopted Moses when she was 15. But i have found no real data as to when Nefure became married to that Pharaoh. Before or after she adopted Moses.



Bel you say: I do not actually consider is factual to quote from religious book's that were written long after the event's we are discussing. It is a known fact that these book's from which we speak, are as influenced by political power as is the case of "JonBenet Ramsey." Which simply state's that it is not necessary the TRUTH the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH, so help us GOD.

Starjade says: Well as a matter of fact the Old Testament was written not far from that Time period especially as Moses himself was adopted by Nefure/ Hatshepsut. So the two are connected in history there is no doubt and as you know the data on dates from Historians regarding that Time period are not exact. The Genesis period would have been written long before Thutmoses1/Amenhotep 1 was even born. But the Exodus well that was happening at that Time.

The debate was in whether or not it was the Pharaohs daughter as it says in the Old Testament or the Pharaohs wife as it says in the Koran. It is clear that it would have to have been the Pharaohs daughter Nefure Hatshepsut. That is then a matter of history and not the religious beliefs of the Jews or Muslims (even though) the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael and so are Jews also. Two different religions and two differing statements settled by Egyptian history. Clearly the Koran has not been true. So it was not about the beliefs of either religion but about history corroborating one book the Old Testament against the other the Koran. There are other matter regarding these conversations that you are not aware of and all of it oddly is in the verifying of the truth of one book or the other.

This Time the Old Testament has stood that test of Time. And the Koran has not.

Bel you say: Therefore in so saying, here is a little inside skinny on the skinny.....
Hatshepsut was a Egyptian queen and became one of the first recorded female rulers when she adopted the full titles of a pharaoh. Hatshepsut was the eldest daughter of the Pharaoh Thutmose I and Queen Ahmose. Thutmose I was the successor of the childless pharaoh, Amenhotep I. Thutmose I was a successful general in the army and married the old Pharaoh's sister Ahmose. Hatshepsut was born around 1502 BC. Her two eldest brothers died in accidents before their father's death. In Egypt only a male could be a pharaoh, however, the bloodline to the throne came from the eldest daughter of the old pharaoh and marriage to her was essential to succeed to the throne. The common practice was for the pharaoh to marry his favorite son to his eldest daughter. Brother sister marriages and even father daughter marriages were accepted in the royal families of ancient Egypt. It is thought that Hatshepsut was about age fifteen when her father died.

Starjade says: Yes thankyou for the history of Thutmose 1 / Amenhotep 1. I did read up on that and I have seen statements that claimed that Nefure was 15 when her father died but I looked deeper at many historical sources and that just is not possible.

Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1 was called Pharaoh but was co regent to Pharaoh Ahmosis who lived in Thebes in Memphis. The Pharaoh Ahmosis was the main ruler of Egypt and so Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. would only be the main ruling Pharaoh after the death of the Pharaoh Ahmosis.

Nefure was the only surviving daughter of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. Nefure convinced her father to make her little adopted child Moses his future heir. So Moses was set up to become the future King of all Egypt. Moses became known as Senmut which means mothers brother. Historians studies show that Moses came to live in the palace at about 12 years Old about the same Time that his adopted Grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. became main emporer over the whole of Egypt. At this Time they had moved from the palace at Memphis where the Co regent ruled and went to Thebes where the main Palace was.

At about the age of 18 Moses was designated the future heir apparent with his mother Nefure as his regent. She was now given the additional royal name of “Hatshepsut” and was then referred to as Queen instead of princess. Once someone was designated as the future heir to the throne his inscriptions refer to him as “King”. Moses was elevated to this position of heir apparent when he was 24 years old. When Moses became about 33 years old he was designated as being the Crown Prince and became known as Thutmoses 11. The numbers after the Egyptian Kings names are simply designations given to them by Egyptologists to identify each succeeding person of the same name. When Moses was 40 he killed an Egyptian and so as history claims Moses had to flee Egypt.

Had the Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. been dead when Nefure was 15 then it is odd that Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. became main emporer over the whole of Egypt. When Moses or shall we say Nefures adopted child was 12. And she only became known as Hatshepsut which is a Title because her father accepted Nefures adopted child as his future Heir apparent naming Nefure as her child’s regent that is how she then became to have that Title Hatshepsut.

Bel you say: Hatshepsut was married to her father before his passing at the age of 15 (ironic, don't you think); giving her royal passage. Hatshepsut's then ordered that she be crowned a pharaoh and she adopted the Horus name and false beard. Horus names were used only by male rulers.

Starjade says: I do not know where your are getting your data from but you are mistaken. Nefure / Hatshepsut was married to her half brother Thutmose who became known as Thutmose the 11. Taking the Titles in Egyptian tradition when Moses or should we call him Senmut Thutmoses 11, which was his Egyptian name. Fled Egypt when he killed an Egyptian. Had the Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 died then Nefure / Hatshepsuts adopted child would have been crown King of all Egypt the Emperor Pharaoh. But that did not happen because the Child of Nefure / hatshepsut had killed an Egyptian and fled Egypt. That child being of course called Moses. or should we call him Senmut Thutmoses 11 which was his Egyptian name.

His Hebrew name is Moses. He Fled from Egypt after killing the Egyptian and so then Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 then married his daughter Nefure / Hatshepsut to her half brother who again from Egyptian tradition collected all of the Egyptian Titles and ranks of his predecessor. Which was Moses or rather Egyptian wise he was then called Thutmoses 11. The marriage of the half brother to Nefure / Hatshepsut meant her new husband would also be named Thutmoses 11 and he would then become that heir to that Egyptian throne. Instead of Moses who once was Thutmoses 11 until he fled Egypt leaving a dilemma of the potential loss of the throne to another family because as you said females do not rule in Egypt.

Only someone then marrying Nefure / Hatshepsut could then become Emperor Pharaoh of Egypt when her father Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 died. Who was not the adopted son and agreed heir to that throne by Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 whos own children had died creating a similar problem of losing that Crown. Adoption then was accepted. And as Moses or should we call him Senmut Thutmoses 11 was clearly only the crown prince then clearly as logic dictates then Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 was still very much alive.

Bel you say: Ane to quote her, "Now my heart turns to and fro, in thinking what will the people say, they who shall see my monument in after years, and shall speak of what I have done."

Starjade says: Clearly even though female and not classed as Ruler she did her own stuff regards ruling on the side indulging in such Power whiles her crown prince child was being trained as being the future Pharaoh for when his grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 had died. After all he was the heir to the throne. Nefure / hatshepsut would have found it hard to give up that seat of power and indeed why should she in her mind just because of Egyptian traditions.

I did research this matter extensively because those I was speaking with will check on my words as their religion is at stake in their eyes. I know my data is correct. Never trust one source of information as some people do not look further than the first page. It is an illumination to see the Egyptian data match the Old Testament so accurately. But Islam bit the dust a long Time before these conversati8ons took place. It was not the wise to place the Sura 4:82 in a Book that is so full of errors. In case you do not know. Sura 4:82 says: Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. There is a challenge in Islam that is open to all Muslims and non Muslims and the Challenge is to find Just one error in the Koran. If one error is found in the Koran then that is the proof that the Koran did not come from God.

Trust me when Muslims Goaded me to challenge Islam with that Sura 4:82 that very day Islam bit the dust. There were over a thousand Muslims in that Challenge and when I challenged Islam, Islam bit the dust and thousands of Muslims who bragged they could defend Islam against my God given Revelations all shirked away and Islam has never been able to recover since. :lol: But that is another story. :lol: Yet still a part of this one. For they claim i8n the Koran that it was the pharaohs wife who adopted Moses when the Old Testament said it was the Pharaohs daughter and I have since proved it was the daughter Nefure. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:24 am 
Pharaoh
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I appreciate the things you have posted. I understand your deep commitment to Biblical study. But to "prove" the Bible to be the word of God, and to try and show that every statement in the
Bible is a direct and irrefruitable truth, and that the Koran is a compliation of errors is a hopeless task. To asume that the existance of Moses can be proved to have been in the era of Hapshepsut is taking a long step. Even in the Bible, the princess who rescured Moses from the Nile, if you truely believe it happened, is not identified.
The incidents recorded in the Bible are a matter of personal belief, and to commit yourself to such belief is very commendable. But you must realize that the Bible is a collection of oral traditions, most of which were written down quite some time after it had supposedly happened, and written down by mortals, who could make mistakes. Traditions in the Bible are just that--traditions. To use those traditions as "proof" of any statement is to base your scholarship on shakey ground. As I said before, accepting statements in the Bible is a matter of personal belief. Trying to use those statements to prove a point is questionable. To Islamic peoples, the Koran is just as sacred.. a book as the Bible is to Christians. Christians may laugh at inconsistencies in the Koran, but I'm sure Islamic people laugh at the Bible, too. I've found that no matter what you try to do, you cannot alter the basic beliefs of people.


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Christianity and Islam bite the dust:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:31 am 
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Osiris II wrote:
I appreciate the things you have posted. I understand your deep commitment to Biblical study. But to "prove" the Bible to be the word of God, and to try and show that every statement in the Bible is a direct and irrefutable truth, and that the Koran is a compilation of errors is a hopeless task.


Starjade says: I have already proven the Koran long ago did not come from God by using the Sura 4:82 challenge that says if one error is proven to be found in the Koran then the Koran itself proves the Koran did not come from God. What is more I used Islamic laws that force the Muslim to reject things that are found to be untrue and I have forced them to accept the things that are found to be true using that same Islamic law. There are some 500 errors in the Koran and so far no Muslim has been able to dispute those errors found to exist in the Koran. Muhammad is already proven by me to be a fraud and that was real easy. Also I proved that Jesus is a fraud also. So really my only real interest is not the religion but the Prophecies made by the Living God in Deuteronomy Ch 18 Verse 18:

A Prophet I shall raise up in the MIDST of your Brothers , like you.And I shall indeed put my words in his mouth and he will certainly speak to them all that I command him.Deuteronomy Ch 18 Verse 19:And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name. I shall myself require an account from him.
The Koran and the Bible are not my religion. I am not bound within the confines of any particular liturgical form of worship. These are other peoples religions not mine.

Quote:
To assume that the existence of Moses can be proved to have been in the era of Hapshepsut is taking a long step. Even in the Bible, the princess who rescued Moses from the Nile, if you truly believe it happened, is not identified.


Starjade says: The Pharaoh was mentioned in the Koran and the Old Testament. The debate was if Moses had been adopted by the wife of the Pharaoh or his daughter and Nefure Hateshepsut has been identified as being that very woman who adopted Moses.

Quote:

The incidents recorded in the Bible are a matter of personal belief, and to commit yourself to such belief is very commendable. But you must realize that the Bible is a collection of oral traditions, most of which were written down quite some time after it had supposedly happened, and written down by mortals, who could make mistakes.


Starjade says: Yes and those beliefs are about a Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. The rest of those religious beliefs are of no concern or of any real interest to me. The Koran is of Oral tradition but the Old Testament was already written. Ending with Malachi not long after that Exodus. And I have been pointing out many errors in the New Testament and the Koran and even on occasion in the Old Testament due of course to the fact that any Bible with a new Testament in it is written by Christians not Jews and those Christians do lie a lot don’t they and alter text and even remove text. But those things were not the issues. It is all about who that prophet is that God promised Moses he would raise up. Both Jesus and Muhammad are both claiming themselves to being that Prophet without any actual proof.

Quote:
Traditions in the Bible are just that--traditions. To use those traditions as "proof" of any statement is to base your scholarship on shaky ground. As I said before, accepting statements in the Bible is a matter of personal belief.


Starjade says: Isn’t that your belief though and not shared by those who read the Koran or the Old Testament or the New Testament. Out of the three the Old Testament is the Oldest. And my conversations are not about the beliefs but about the truth. They are not all true. So if you were to choose then which of the three would you choose and why ?

Of course I may have pointed out that already I have proven the Koran and the Christians new Testament to be false easily and using religious laws to do that and also Koranic laws. Muhammad and Jesus are both claiming themselves to be that very same Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. But God only promised one Prophet. Foretold in the Old Testament. Now the new Testament and the Koran both made claims that their self appointed Prophets are that specific Prophet.

Now I already proved that both are frauds years ago. The question you should wonder is just how did I prove that for a fact that is not disputable and cannot be argued against.

Quote:
Trying to use those statements to prove a point is questionable. To Islamic peoples, the Koran is just as sacred.. a book as the Bible is to Christians.


Starjade says: Wasn’t a stone sacred once to a cave man, wasn’t the Golden calf sacred to blasphemous Jews, isn’t the Koran just the same as the New testament and just another stone or golden calf. If you stood by a man who his God was this stone would you bow down and believe him and not dare to argue in case he stoned you to death with his God or got angry. Religious law controls both the Jews the Christians and the Muslims and I already quoted those laws before I even began. In fact I used those very law to prove that Jesus and Muhammad were both liars and frauds. I am very good at what I do and no Muslim or Christian is in any position to do anything about it. Muslims and Christians dare not under any circumstances accuse me of Blasphemy publicly as I can and already have eaten them for breakfast. And I will not bow down to a stone or golden calf of any sort. I think they are fully aware of that fact by now.

Quote:
Christians may laugh at inconsistencies in the Koran, but I'm sure Islamic people laugh at the Bible, too. I've found that no matter what you try to do, you cannot alter the basic beliefs of people.


Starjade says: Trust me I stopped them laughing and now they weep. I outright proved that Jesus and Muhammad are frauds and no Christian or Muslim on earth can do anything about that. They tried to dispute those matters but found they could not dispute the Revelations that I gave to them which proved my word is true. And I used religious law the many signs in the heavens and the acts and deeds to prove my words are all very true. They did not have any evidence to back their mouths up. Christians and Muslims all bit the dust. Imagine Islam. I was goaded by Muslims and challenged by Muslims to challenge Islam. They said they could and would defend Islam against my God given Revelations. So I challenged Islam all of Islam world wide. Thousands took part in that challenge and in just on day in just a few posts Islam bit the dust. Those Muslims found they could not defend Islam and so they shirked away. But I challenged the whole of Islam so the challenge does not go away. It just gets passed onto the next Muslims who also bite the dust. I really am the King of the apocalyptic Castle from now until the End of Times.

This matter of who adopted Moses was about just one error found in the Koran. There have been many such errors mentioned and I proved they are errors in the Koran and I proved Islam did not come from God and I did that right in front of the faces of Muslims who thought they could defend Islam. But no they are just dreaming and each Time I speak Islam bites the dust. Now Muslims are afraid of the Doomsday Prophet Starjade and they shirk and go very silent. Which is just how things should be when a real King speaks.
:lol: :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:12 pm 
Pharaoh
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I have tried to be understanding and polite with you, suggesting that any tangents you go off on are a matter of personal belief. You choose to ignore whatever I have been saying, and continue to "bad-mouth" Islam, the Koran and Mohammud. If you cannot cease this, please do not bother to post here any longer.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:56 pm 
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Watch it, people...any more flames and this gets closed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:46 pm 
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you're right, DM28. This thread has gotten out of hand. I think the original subject was facts of Hapshepsut--let's get back to that and stop this silly debate.


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