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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:29 pm 
Gods/Goddesses
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The only ass here was *mhmm*


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Rosetta Stone
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:14 pm 
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Translation's:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/ ... stone.html

Interesting, No?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:55 pm 
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The last spelling of 'Ptolemys-mery-ptah' is spelt incorrecty on the rosetta stone! lol :)


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show me
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:45 pm 
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or are you being Funny?
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/ ... ation.html


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:53 am 
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It is true- I went today to the City Museum and had a look at the copy of the Rosetta stone there. All of the cartouches had been highlighted, but I saw that there was a letter missing from the last cartouche.

Image

That is the normal cartouche of Pharaoh Ptolemy, who's cartouche appears frequently on the stone. However, the last cartouche is missing the 'ua' or 'wa' glyph (the one of the rope with the loop). Although this glyph is not needed to read his name, it was supposed to have been incorporated, otherwise the name would lack its sanctity and honour. Other mistakes- that an amateur like myself couldn't spot have apparently been found, which is quite funny I think.

I should say that although the spelling of some words in Egyptian are 'flexible' (some repetitive glyphs can be ommited) it was not common practice to leave out glyphs that were neccesary in order to make sense of the word, and it was sacreligious to malform or misconstrue the names of Pharaohs (as they were gods- and the names of Gods were hugely sacred).


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm 
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So who can read and understand hieroglyphs like it's English? Psusennes I and Neb-Ma'at-Re? I need help with something.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:49 pm 
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Psusennes I think it is odd that the 'rope w/loop' glyph [V4] was omitted from Ptolemys cartouche, but when you say "it is not needed to read his name" do you mean that we can still identify this to be his name because we are already aware that this is his cartouche or simply that this phoneme is not needed in the pronuciation of his name? Remember that his name is of foreign origin so it is spelled out phonetically. Certainly by eliminating this glyph [V4] changes the pronunciation.

Ex.
I know I don't need to explain this to you but here goes anyways. If I were to eliminate the 'a' in the name Charles (wink..wink) we would have Chrles. Now we are familiar with the name so we automatically think Charles when we see it. However if one were not familiar with this name and were to substitute the missing 'a' with 'e' it would be pronounced slightly different as Cherles.If one were to substitute the missing 'a' with 'o' it would again change the pronunciation to Chorles and so on. Although they sound very similar to the original they do differ and might be interpreted differently.

However, [V4] is not really the glyph that we should question. It is the lion glyph [E23] that is mispronounced in Ptolemys name. I have come to the conclusion tha the Egyptians did not have an 'L' sound as we know it. I believe when introduced to Macedonian and Ptolemaic names they pronounced the 'L' similar to the way someone with a thick Asian accent pronounces the English 'L' which resembles an 'r' sound.

Allow me to state my case.

The squating lion glyph [E23] is given the phonetic value of ru by both Gardiner and Budge. We can see many instances of this in Budge's E.H.D. Now we know of Budge's many errors in transliterations ( and translation for that matter) however we do not question his recording of the actual heiroglyphs.

On page 942 of Budge's E.H.D., entry 388 we have the sa Re (son of Re) name of of Alexander the Great. The second glyph is the squating lion [E23] and Budge gives a phonetic value of 'r' making this name Arksantrs. Entry 389 we have the sa Re name of Philip Arrhidaeus. Again we see [E23] and again Budge gives a phonetic value of 'r' making this name Phiriupus. So what's the big deal? Budge has been wrong with transliteration many times right!

Now check out entry 390. It is the sa Re name of Alexander II. Budge gives not one but two examples of this name, not with the squating lion glyph [E23] but instead the open mouth glyph [D21] which we know has a phonetic value of 'r', 'ra' or 'er'!!!!! Now certainly he did not mistake [D21] for [E23] when originally recording these names.

Now on page 944 and 945 there are many examples of names that we know have an 'r' sound in them are shown in cartouches with the seated lion glyph [E23]!

pg 944
406. Caesar (Ptolemys XVI, Philopator IV, Philometor IV, Caesarion)
407. Arsinoe (Arsenai)
408. Arsinoe II
410. Bernice II (Barniga)
411. Bernice III (Barniga)
412. Arsinoe III(Arsenai)
416. Bernice IV (Cleopatra IV Bernice IV)
417. Tryphaena (Cleopatra V)

pg 945
418. Caesarion ( Cleopatra VI and her son Caesarion)

...and the examples continue on into the names of the Roman Emperors.

So it appears that the squating lion glyph[E23] and the open mouth glyph [D21] were interchangable as an 'r', 'er','ru'and 're' sound. Because the squating lion glyph was used in place of the 'L' sound in the name Ptolemy, it was given a false phoneme of 'L' by Champollion when it appears that the Ancient Egyptians in fact did not even use an 'L' sound in their language!!!!!!!!

Call me crazy, call me insensitive, call me what you wish I cannot help but think of the end of the classic movie "A Christmas Story" after the Bumbuses hounds stormed Ralphie's kitchen and ate the Christmas turkey. The family ends up going to a Chinese restaurant for dinner. After serving a roast duck (head and all) the waiters begin to sing Christmas carols:
"Deck the hors with bears of horry...fa ra ra ra raaa ra ra ra ra"
The head waiter, also Chinese, tries to correct them saying:
"No no no. Fa la la la laaa la la la la"
They give up and then start singing Jingle bells:
"Jingre bears jingre bears jingre or the way...."

I think of these men trying to sing these songs in English as the Ancient Egyptians may have pronounced Macedonian, Ptolemaic, Greek and Roman names containing the letter 'L'.


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Help?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:21 pm 
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What do you need help with Ramsekh?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:20 am 
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Neb-Ma'at-Re wrote:
Ex.
I know I don't need to explain this to you but here goes anyways. If I were to eliminate the 'a' in the name Charles (wink..wink) we would have Chrles. Now we are familiar with the name so we automatically think Charles when we see it. However if one were not familiar with this name and were to substitute the missing 'a' with 'e' it would be pronounced slightly different as Cherles.If one were to substitute the missing 'a' with 'o' it would again change the pronunciation to Chorles and so on. Although they sound very similar to the original they do differ and might be interpreted differently.
.


I also think that V4 was used to render the best way possible the prononciation of the "o" of Ptolemys, which in normal egyptian was not written.....and in some way "forgotten" a little later....

Things like that were already possible to happen in ancient times with their original language and I think it was much easier trying to render foreign sounds....
anyway, I like the christmass carols sung by chinese :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:41 am 
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OK. I get you.

I just thought that there wouldn't be much confusion over the absence of one letter to the general public. It isn't as though they are going to mistake "Ptolemy" for that well known other lord of the two lands, "Ptelemy". :)

lol


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:18 pm 
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eh..I guess your right Chorles...(just joking)

But what are your thoughts on the lion glyph [E23]. Have you found any evidence of it having a phonetic value of "L"? It does strike me as strange though to think that they did not use this sound. Either way, this is what they used to render the "L" phoneme of foreign names....sometimes...lol


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:27 am 
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It is just as close to an 'l' as the Egyptians could make- in the same way that we English transliterate "Neter" as "Netjer" so that we can say it, the Egyptians were forced to transliterate the Greek names so that they were pronounceable. I am more interested in the possible upshot of the Egyptian "rw" sounding like an "l". It might be interesting to consider their r as making a different sound to our modern r.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:12 am 
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Psus, what do you mean with the different "r"....?I didn't get you.....tell me something more, please :wink:
I'm gonna ask somebody about the problem of the lion as an "l" too and see what comes out :wink: ....
ciau...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:00 am 
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Well if the lion is "ru", then perhaps in Egyptian pronunciation of "ru" sounded similar to "l". It's just an idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:59 am 
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Psusennes I think I would have to agree with you but to take this question even further we may consider the possibility that it was not strictly limited to "ru" and may have been used interchangably with "r", "er", "rw", "re" as indicated by the use of the open mouth glyph [D21] that Budge offers for the the cartouche of Alexander II (entry 390)...at least in its context of "L" for foreign names.

What does Gardiner list for the cartouche of Alexander II? Does he show the open mouth glyph or the lion?


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