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Re: Kem-rem
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:02 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
I wasn't paying attention to where my fingers were while I was typing--sorry!
You're right. Kem is Black, rem is fish!


rmt (remet) is the name that they Egyptians used to refer to their people as a whole, so you were almost there the first time. 'rmt' is used to mean 'people', 'population' and 'to populate'.

Plutarch describes the Egyptians as being tall, slight and of tanned skin tones, but he did not visit the southern reaches of the country. In my opinion it is ludicrous to claim that all of the inhabitiants of such a large country would have all been of the same skin colour, or deny that some were white and others black. The people of Arabia are tanned, whilst the people of Sudan are dark. Egypt is clearly the transition country, and whilst procreation would clearly result in tanned individuals, the poorer classes who could not afford to travel would make up the bulk of the light and dark skinned population.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:51 am 
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Tadukhipa wrote:
Si-amun wrote:
Why is there so much speculation about skin tones when there is so much evience in statues, paintings and reliefs. Not to mention the sarcophagi, papyri and sketches.


Because All iconography isn't the same. And because Egyptians, like other blacks come in a variety of Skin Tone. You do realize don't you?, that the first Europeans to see ancient Egyptian art, such as the Great Sphinx and the Tomb of Seti, concluded that they were Negroes.
Image

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I recall a statue I saw in the Cairo Museum of Prince Ramose and his wife (Nofret I think), a couple from the Old Kingdom. The Princess was very pale, almost white in her complexion and Ramose was a tanned ochre colour.

Nofret is extremely rare, (pun intended) and suspected of being a fraud, so why are you using that as an example of a typical Egyptian?

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I know it is merely one example but there seems to be more primary evidence to show that Egypt was not as different then as it is now, with a mix of European, Arabic and African blood.

That would be a foolish conclusion, since the 1st Europeans to "meet" the ancient Egyptians (the ancient Greeks), referred to them as blacks and woolly haired. And the arabs did not even enter the country until long after Pharaonic Egyptian civilization had died. Nofret statue proves "nothing" in fact, except that it is always sighted precisely because it is unusual.

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Surely testing the mummies we have would put lay to all this dispute. Can it be so hard to determine if Tutankhamun was a Black African, or a fair skinned European.
Well, there is a melanin skin doesage test that when conducted on several mummies in france confirmed that they were dark skinned black peoples and not white. Frankly, no serious "current" scientist thinks that King Tut was a pale European. :roll:
I'm sure you've seen the facial reconstruction done on him:

Image

What exactly is the point of this thread then? What are you debating?
If you don't think King Tut look like this, and you have sensible reasons was to why, then write Dr. Robin Richards the forensic expert from University College London, who supervised the reconstruction.

Bottom line: No one thinks Tutankhamun was fair skinned or European except Egyptomanical white people who need to believe that Ancient Africans are related to themseles. You guys need to drop the ethnocentric fantasizing and appreciate the Egyptians as the dark skinned Africans they were. Just as the Chinese were Asians, and the Greeks were Europeans.
The fact that the Egyptians are black Africans and in no way related to white people of Europe (whom, they called Tamahou by the way) should not stop you from admiring their culture. No need to lie to ourselves people.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:39 pm 
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Please do not bring the much-debated (see Egypt Search) subject of the color of ancient Egyptians skin. This board is a very friendly, fun place to visit, and doesn't appreciate distubances such as these.
This is not a soap-box for you to "preach" Afrocentrism vrs. Euocentrism. There is enough racial conflict in the world already; you don't need to try to stir up more.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:02 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
Please do not bring the much-debated (see Egypt Search) subject of the color of ancient Egyptians skin. This board is a very friendly, fun place to visit, and doesn't appreciate distubances such as these..


Look Fred, I didn't start this subject on King Tut's Face, or spout racist nonsense about King Tut being a European. Not everyone thinks as you do that racist disinformation is 'fun'. So don't issue fighting words if you don't like to fight. Comprendo?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:01 pm 
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The name is not Fred--sorry.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:00 am 
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I wish to say something, if you don't mind...
The people living along the Nile have always been, and still are, very different in skin colour. As you surely know, the Nile is very long and runs from the deepest black Africa up to the Mediterranean sea. All the people living near the mediterranean have different kind of skin: they can be from white( never too pale) to dark brown skin ( of course, not black). ....this is also for commercial reasons that these people can be so different and that they have mix so well.....same as for the Old Egyptians: Those from the north were almost white and those from Nubia were almost black....and they did what they did living together!!This is Egypt, and there is no reason to discuss about racism.
Well, now you can throw away my thought.....have a nice day! :wink:
Ciao


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:21 am 
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I must defend myself here. I am not a racist at all. I am more than willing to accept that he would be Black if there was slightly more evidence. When in Egypt I rarely saw the depiction of a black man or woman in any of their art forms. If perhaps you are suggesting that ALL of their art is a fake then I suggest you visit the country. The statues that are black are also either carved from ebony wood, a similar dark wood or black stone, unfortuneately for your arguement almost all of these statues have European/Arabic features. I am not saying that there were no black Africans in Egypt but it does certainly seem from their own art that they were not the majority.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:26 am 
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I agree, Maatkara. The ancient Egyptians were a diverse group--some, usually in the Delta, almost white, and some, usually in Upper Egypt, almost black. To say otherwise, leaning heavily to Black or White, is to ignore the facts, and is usually just a soapbox to "preach" one's own views.
This whole subject has become a tempest in a teacup!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:45 am 
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I was not saying that YOU are a racist.....how sensitive you are on that point!!! and it was not my intention to offend anybody....I do agree the blacks were not the majority, but they were a big part anyway of the population. Also it is important to keep in mind that the characteristics of those who were black were still more similar to the european than to the black of the Mid-Africa....Etiopia and Somalia people, don't they have much more similarities to the europeans than to the real black ones?And I was not suggesting any foolishness like that all statues were fake, I'm not crazy, nor stupid....and you're not the only one who has been in Egypt or who can study this matter...I was just trying to confrontate with you all.
I hope I explained a little better...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:12 am 
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I am sensitive over the issue of racism because I think rascism is the lowest kind of predjudice. The issue of race in Ancient Egypt is fast becoming a soap box as predeccesors of mine have noted. I accept readily that there were a lot of "black" people in Egypt during the reign of the Pharaohs but I do not accept the view that there was any more a sizeable group than there is today. Egypt is largel populated by members of the race of Arabs, the Middle East has been dominated by Semitic races since the beginning of history. I am far more inclined to view Egypt as part of the Middle East than a part of Africa. Rarely do you see "blacks" portrayed in Ancient Egyptian art, unless it is symbolically for fertility and thus creation. In all depictions of Egyptians I can think of I cant recall a single image of a black African. I am far more inclined to argue that (as is the case to this very day) the North of Egypt, from the First Cataract up, is inhabited by a more Semitic race than the South which is populated by a much darker population. We are all in agreement that there were black raced people inhabiting Egypt during Pharonic times, what exactly are we arguing about here? I disagree that it was a large group above the First Cataract (as is still the case). Can you bring proof otherwise?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:27 am 
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no, that's more or less my thought....but for example Montuhotep was not represented as a "white" guy, was he?
Or, but of course cannot be scientifically prooved, Senenmut, the Hatshepsut's architect, was probably a nubian....which is connected to the theory that he was th efather of MaiherperRa....just a supposition, but...at the moment I don't honestly remember any other...but if I find somenthing interesting, I'll let you know.... :wink:

I don't write because I want to argue, but 'cause throu' discussions we all can learn more from each other....don't misunderstand me, I prefer to relax talking about My Egypt, not to fight...It's stupid and lead to nothing... :wink:

Ciao, and let me know....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:43 pm 
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maatkara wrote:
Also it is important to keep in mind that the characteristics of those who were black were still more similar to the european than to the black of the Mid-Africa....Etiopia and Somalia people, don't they have much more similarities to the europeans than to the real black ones?


Of course Somalians and Ethiopians are real black people. They are just as real, as black and as Africans as Nigerians. Don't try to make Ancient Egypt or China or the Mayans European. They were not.

Are French and Italians and Greeks real white people? Are the japanese real Asians? Try to understand how ignorant and offensive that question is.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:54 pm 
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For God's sake. Why are so many people constantly playing games to do with race? I do not make an issue out of my race as a caucasian, why do people feel the need to constantly stir up boards like this with racial arguments.
Tut 101, have you made any other contributions to this siote other than stirring us all up? Most people here will know what this argument can do to a board.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:28 pm 
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Si-amun wrote:
For God's sake. Why are so many people constantly playing games to do with race?


It takes two to tango. Just remember that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:33 am 
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I don't like the way that this conversation is headed. . . . I'm staying out of this one. I'd advise you to too, or at least block this thread before it gets out of hand.
The question of skin colour and race is not an important one, and yet some people *cough* seem to find it enjoyable to constantly bombard us with ridiculous claims and arguments.

Good day.


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