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The restitution of a relief from Bruxels Museum....
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:39 pm 
Pharaoh
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The unceasing mysteries of Egypt's antiquities
Brussels museum is to return a stolen 5th dynasty relief


Wednesday, April 27, 2005



CAIRO: A Brussels museum will hand over to Egypt a limestone relief that had been smuggled out of the country more than 30 years ago, an Egyptian antiquities official said Monday.

The Royal Museum of Art and History in Brussels, Belgium, agreed to return the relief, which was stolen from the Giza tomb of a 5th dynasty priest, Senenu, said Zahi Hawass, the secretary general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities. In return, an archaeological mission belonging to the museum will be allowed to continue its work in Egypt, he said.

"Exerting scientific pressure is the most important way of getting back our stolen antiquities," Hawass said. "We will start a fierce battle with the museums and the private collectors who have these antiquities. We won't scientifically deal with those who don't return them."

In recent years, Egypt has been trying, with some success, to secure the return of artifacts stolen or smuggled out of the country. Two of the biggest treasures whose return Hawass repeatedly has demanded remain outside the country, a 3,000-year-old bust of Queen Nefertiti that is in a Berlin museum and the Rosetta Stone in the British Museum.

"Egypt is very serious about reclaiming its antiquities," he said, adding that a delegation from the Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) will fly to Brussels next week to reclaim the relief.

The relief is one of three pieces discovered in 1965 in Senenu's tomb and smuggled out of the country, said an SCA release. The SCA did not say exactly when it was believed to have been taken out of Egypt, but said the museum had bought the piece from a private Belgian collector in 1973.

The limestone relief is divided into two registers: the upper one showing two female figures and the lower showing the same females with a small boy, the release said. It was restored in the 1980s and since then has been permanently exhibited in the Old Kingdom room of the Egyptian department.

Hawass said officials were compiling a list of other antiquities stolen from Egypt after 1972 in a bid to bring them back. In the last three years, Egypt reclaimed more than 3,000 pieces, he said.

Meanwhile, an Egyptian mummy may be responsible for the sinking of the ocean cruise liner the Titanic, a new documentary from the Discovery Civilization channel will argue a week on Friday.

The documentary investigates the latest theory that the mummy of an Egyptian princess encased in the British Museum may have caused one of the most famous tragedies at sea in modern history.

"Museum Mysteries: British Museum" explores the supernatural powers of the unlucky mummy-case containing the remains of the princess of Amen-Ra. Myths and mysteries surround the vast collection of Egyptian antiquities found in the British Museum and the mummy of princess Amen-Ra is believed to have caused many injuries, deaths and large scale disasters. It is a cursed mummy as it were - a spirit causing trouble from the beyond the grave.

The documentary also investigates a gruesome revelation: the murder of Lindow Man whose body was naturally mummified by lying in a swamp for 2,000 years. The body is remarkably preserved but forensic tests have shown that the man met a violent death as his skull was fractured in two places and his throat slit before being thrown into the bog. The documentary discusses whether the killing was a typical routine sacrifice made to the gods or murder.

In a final twist of myth and mystery, the program analyzes the enigmatic rock crystal skull, believed by some to hold the key to the destiny of mankind. - The Daily Star with agencies


"Museum Mysteries: British Museum" will be shown on Discovery Civilization on the Showtime network on Friday May 6 at 21:15 KSA.

I took the new from egittologia.net

Now pls tell me what do you think????? :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:40 pm 
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I think I have already read this article.... :D
You know I'm joking...
I appreciate your idea to post here this article!!! :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:04 pm 
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:lol: thanx Chube! I did it to share it with KTO friends! :lol: ....I often do so... :D


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:33 pm 
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There was an article recently in the L.A. Times, about a woman whose job it was to investigate artifacts that were in question in various museums. She worked on the crystal skull--in fact, there are several of them in different museums and collections around the world, and in her opinion they are fakes made by the same person about 50 years ago.
I've also heard of the "cursed" mummy that was supposed to cause the Titanic disaster. It's also not true--there was no Egyptian mummy on the vessal, only a coffin that was being sent to the Metropolitan Museum.
Stories such as this surface all the time, and Discovery plays it to the hilt--trying, no doubt, to increase its viewing public.
I think Hawass has been very successful in getting objects returned, but I think his efforts on the Nefertiti bust and the Rosetta Stone will fail. Both the Berlin Museum and the British Museum have, in effect, told him "finders-keepers".


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:49 am 
Egyptian Architect
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Well "Osiris" you are the God among gods and should probably now.
But this "Finders keeps" want stand when your countries is under
pressure, when you have to chose between what's common right
and what's wrong. And thank God its not you who finally decides
this issue but the German and British government :lol:

You are bound to lose and you now it :twisted: This relics
is going back to their homeland and they should

But this is a discussion we hade before so lets stop now
and see the facts. One by one they fall.... one by one
they do what's right.... one by one they follow the UN
and one by one they rise in glory.

One day you will be proud of what you have done
and go to Egypt as heroes for saving, preserving and returning
Follow the great countries and show that yours are among us

Join the Quest and bring them home!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:32 am 
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C;laude II, if you had read what I posted carefully, you would have seen that in no way do I support any Museum's collection of Egyptian art. I was merely stating the obvious--that, with the Nefertiti bust and the Rosetta Stone, having them returned to Egypt is the LAST thing the Berlin Museum and the British Museum will do. The are the museum's prime works of art.
The question of returning or allowing object to be kept is a tricky one--if it's decided that the objects should be returned, does that mean ALL Egyptian art should be sent back? Where is the line drawn? Should every mummy, coffin, vase, canopic jar, model, broken pottery shard--the list is endless. I think it would be a great dis-service to any museum that sponsered a dig in Egypt--and there are many. And I also think that it would be extremely hard to decide what to return.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:28 am 
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Claude, I actively support the British Museum and the Berlin Museum in their keeping of the Egyptian artifacts so have a go at me, and not at Osiris. Also, why will you constantly refuse to drop this argument. One topic has already blocked because we couldn't stop arguing. now you come ont to this one and lecture us. If I wanted a sermon I would make plans to go to church tomorrow. As it stands I am not so I would appreciate it if you didn't sermonise on this board as every time you do it puts me in a foul mood. I dont know if anyone else is feeling this (though I feel Psusuennes is behind me here) but you are really antagonising me and I can't express how irritating I find your little crusade. Either stop it here and now or leave. And dont you dare give a lecture then tell us not to get back into the argument. How dare you start the argument again and then tell us not to carry it on. Also, I dont see the comparison between the Rosetta Stone and the 5th Dynasty relief. The relief was smuggled out of Egypt 30 years ago, whereas the Rosetta stone was legitametly acquired over a hundred years ago. If it was illegally acquired within Hawass' lifetime I could understand his irritation at us having it but unfortuneately we've had it for centuries, we had it at a time when Egyptians would gladly have used it as a mill stone. It is ours by right now.

Drop this crusade, and for your information I dont "know" that i'll lose because I am in fact a lot more confident in my museum than you are. We'll never give up the Rosetta Stone, it is a key artifact in our collection and the centrepiece for the whole gallery of Egyptian relief and sculpture, which takes up the entire West Wing of the ground floor! Drop your tiresome Crusade Claude, it is getting dreadfully irritating.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:30 am 
Egyptian Architect
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No I want continue this discussion but remeber
NEVER is a very long time :wink:

I will never stop as long as ther is life in this body.

Have nice day!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:43 am 
Pharaoh
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I will, thankyou! Have you ever used a premise, premise conclusion to solidify your argument, if not then I will give you an example...

P - fiftenn year olds have to go to school
P - John is fifteen years old
C - John has to go to school

Using this form of argument can you please state why the Rosetta stone belongs to Egypt, thankyou. You are not allowed to use opinions, only brute facts.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:03 am 
Egyptian Architect
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Si-amun wrote:
I will, thankyou! Have you ever used a premise, premise conclusion to solidify your argument, if not then I will give you an example...

P - fiftenn year olds have to go to school
P - John is fifteen years old
C - John has to go to school

Using this form of argument can you please state why the Rosetta stone belongs to Egypt, thankyou. You are not allowed to use opinions, only brute facts.


Fact 1. Its a sakret Document
Fact 2. Its the key to Egyptian ancient languge
Fact 3. Its not the property of England
Fact 4. Its War gods taken from the French!!!!
Fact 5. It have nothing to do with British Ancient History (Maybe Modern)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:59 pm 
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a) it is not a sacred document at all, as Egyptians generally generally do not worship Ra.
b) it is not the only key to the Egyptian language, in fact in the scheme of decipherment it is quite insignificant.
c) it IS the property of England and has been for over 100 years.
d) i cant refute this one.
e) It may not be British History, should we give back EVERYTHING that isn't directly made in Britain? You say yourself that it is part of our modern history and an integral part of our national museum's heritage.

Oh dear, I seem to be able to refute every one of your premises except one, hardly the most watertight argument is it? You also forgot to draw a conclusion and the argument follows no logical flow of premises so I dont even count it a valued argument.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:14 pm 
Egyptian Architect
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Well if its so pointless for Egypt and so very important for
British you must have little or nothing of your self to show.

I am sorry to learn this abut your people who I always thought
was the great people of Europe, the people that stood up for justice
and the guardians of the weaker people.

My conclusion???
Well how can someone have any conclusion when you think that
this is a common rock with some scratches on?

This rock has the scratches of a language you never hade spoken
or heard. This rock has the essence of the ancient Egyptian people
and to make such statements like they are some careless Muslims
who are not proud of their ancestor is something you should think twice abut.

They dont live in the same welts as you and me, they have to struggle
trough their day and all of what they do is to try to make a better day.
We can help them by visit there country and show them that we respect
them and that we respect their ancestor and their history.

How you can use that name and how you can pay your respect
for ancient Egyptian history with you holdings is something
I will never understand.

But now we can stop this pointless discussion so the "Grand Priest" of this
forum dont have to lock this topic to. You will never change your opinion
and I will surely not do it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 1:27 am 
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CLAUDE STOP THIS BEHAVIOUR NOW!!

WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE ALL THE TOPICS LOCKED BECAUSE OF THIS!

I STARTED THIS TOPIC WITH ANOTHER SUBJECT AND YOU TWO ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF SUBJCT.

IF YOU ALL REALLY NEED TO CONTINUE ARGUING FOR THIS STORY, PLEASE DO IT VIA PM OR E-MAIL.

YOU TWO DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO STRESS EVERYBODY WITH THIS ATTITUDE!
IT IS A LACK OF RESPECT TOWARDS THE OTHERS!

I am sorry to tell you straight, but enough is enough!

serena


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:57 am 
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THANK YOU, Maatkara. Claude, your topic on such things is locked for a reason. Bring up this topic again and you're on my list, got it?


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:59 am 
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Si-amun wrote:
I will, thankyou! Have you ever used a premise, premise conclusion to solidify your argument, if not then I will give you an example...

P - fiftenn year olds have to go to school
P - John is fifteen years old
C - John has to go to school

Using this form of argument can you please state why the Rosetta stone belongs to Egypt, thankyou. You are not allowed to use opinions, only brute facts.


That form of argument just brings up memories of random geometry theorems/postulates...lol! :D

Sorry, my brain is fried from all this SAT prep stuff...stupid standerdized tests! :D


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