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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:40 am 
Gods/Goddesses
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The only things that I know were stolen was Nefertiti's bust which I read in many books and was confirmed on that 'Ramesses: Wrath of God or Man' special in December. And what they said was a woman (don't remember who exactly) stole the bust and took it with her to Berlin in the early 1900's.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:47 am 
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However you want to phrase it, whatever spin-control you put on it, the basic fact is that the Rosetta Stone was taken from the French as a spoil of war. There was no compinsation given, either to the French or to the Egyptians. True, it may have been put in the British Museum to "protect" it, and I agree that it would have been a great error to leave it the Egyptians--who, at that time, were not that interested in their own history. But rationalization does not alter the facts.
The Nefertiti bust was discovered in the work-shop of the official sculptor of the Royal Family at Aketaten. An inspector from the Egyptian government at that time was due to divide up the finds. Things that were unique--of which Nefertiti can claim--were to be kept in Egypt. The discoverers, to hid their find, encased the bust in a layer of Nile mud, so that it looked like a blob of nothing much, but the finders had cleaverly stamped the mud with a royal seal that had been found. The Egyptian offical was told that the blob was to be kept by the German expidetion to study the seal imprints. He let it stay with the Germans. Later, the blob was taken to Germany by the woman who was the second in command of the expidition. It is now considered to be the showpiece of the Berlin Museum.


Last edited by Osiris II on Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:18 am 
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I see that ,more or less, everybody has the same feelings about Hawass, that is that he doesn't hide to be so full of himself and too often completely unfair to the other scholars and egyptologysts from all over the world....
He is managing stuffs that do not belong only to Egypt, but to all mankind....the decisions he takes have strong weight on us all, on everybody...I believe that too often he hides behind the reason that he wishes to give the Egyptology science to the Egyptians and that he uses this according to some special needs....

Talking about museums, I do agree with Psus when he says that foreign museums gave the chance to the Egyptians to become more confident with their own history and to have turism, which is actually of such a great importance to the Egypt people, who are living of this (thanks to this!). Plus, the fact that if it wasn't for us, surely the biggest part of the artifacts and tombs, and temples as well, would have lost.
I only wish to add one thing, that I'm particularly proud of, that is that the Turin collection, which is actually the biggest in the world after that of Cairo museum, is made up of pieces that really belong to the museum itself....no pieces exposed here has been stolen or hidden....
All the pieces exposed in the museums of all over the world have the primary aim to publicize the egyptian art, history and, most of all the turism in Egypt, which is feeding the Country. So I believe that those who still wish to let all artifacts go back to Egypt, they should consider the attraction that foreigners have towards Egypt ( the turism is highly growing there monthly!) is in great part also due to this sort of advertising that expositions and museums make of this really special Country.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:21 am 
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Ramsekh wrote:
Bel, it's not right to say "bag of chips" as an example since they aren't even half a bag anymore.

I don't understand this "concerned with public image" thing.


Are you making reference for example a cup: is it half empty or half full? What do you speak of here?
It is my opinion that he could care less what pother people think of him and he is full of himself i.e. (self-centered and/or placing more importance on self than necessary for survival).


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returning
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:13 am 
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:?: So where is the line to be drawn? Do we leave artifacts from multiple cultures for the world community or should it be Egypt for the Egyptians only? There are ethical issues of collection methods, true but AAM and the international groups also are working to define what should be permitted and what must be returned. Hawaas deserves a little respect yes, if for no other reason than the sheer pull he has in the field. Tick him off and nothing leaves Egypt. I do feel sometimes he has too much power over who has access to things, but authority and vanity can become blurred, no?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:21 am 
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Drawing any sort of line will be extremely difficult.
The bust has become an instantly-recognized symbol of Egypt. It is logical to think of its return, especially since it was more or less stolen.
But then do we empty to Metropolitan Museums collection of wonderful models that Reisner found in his work at Giza? Should the temple reconstructed there be returned to its former site? What about the one in Madrid--a park has been build around it. It was given to Spain by a grateful Egypt for Spain's help in moving Abu Simbel. Should it be dis-assembled and returned to the island from which it came? Oh, that's right--the iland is now under Lake Nasser. I know! Load the stones on a barge--take it to the lake and toss the stone into the water. At least some of it will probably go onto the original site!
As you can see, the debate of what to do can get mired down in illogic thinking. There must be a way to reach decisions about objects in other countries, but thank God that decision is not mine!
I think a good starting point would be to make sure that objects that were taken from Egypt without consent--that were stolen--be returned. But again, who decides?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:05 pm 
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It's a different story if it's a gift. Nefertiti was taken, not given to Berlin. What triggers my anger with this topic is that Berlin thinks Nefertiti's bust belongs in Berlin. Which it does not! This is all I'm saying cuz I don't want to be hated for my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:20 pm 
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Early in the 20th century--I think it was shortly before WW I--the Germans had excavation rights to the Amarna area. They worked fro several years, doing a lot of "shore-up" work, but not finding any really impressive items--until they started to excavate the studio of the Royal Sculptor. The finds were almost immediate--first the so-called Death masks, incomplete statues and work studies of various people and groups. And Nefertiti. The bust had evidently been on a wooden shelf, it had collapsed, but the bust was not damaged. When the team found it, it had been covered by drifting sand. When it was cleaned, they realized that they had something really unique and unusual--the bust of the queen of one of the most tantilizing and unknown periods of Egyptian history. An inspector was due to "divvy" up the items found--half to the Egyptian Museum, the remainder, if duplicates, to the German Expedition. The bust was liberally covered with Nile mud, until it looked like a blob of mud, nothing more. A royal seal that had been found was impressed on the mud. When the inspector was examing the objects found, the "blob" of mud with the seal impression was shown. The expedition leader told the inspector that although it was a usless blob of mud, the team wanted to sent it to Berlin to study the impression. The gulible inspector granted their wish, and gave it to them. The woman who was second in command of the group took it to Berlin the next day! It's been there ever since, and has become the instantly recognized symbol of Egypt. Was it theft? No really, techniqually. Deception? Absolutely! Should it be returned to Egypt? In my humble opinion, YES!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Ramsekh wrote:
It's a different story if it's a gift. Nefertiti was taken, not given to Berlin. What triggers my anger with this topic is that Berlin thinks Nefertiti's bust belongs in Berlin. Which it does not! This is all I'm saying cuz I don't want to be hated for my opinion.


Well I am already hated so let me continue this discussion and to you all
why did you not let me now of this topic :lol:

First to Dr. Hawass... I agree with you that he is full of it sometimes
but dont forget that they are a proud people with a great history and
have in later time been under control of several different Countries.
When a repressed man gains his freedom and even gets some power
they usually take it a little bit to far and in this case people from all
over the world is trying to wrote the history of his country
and of cause there has to be some testosterone flowing and when he
shuts the old colonists out this sends shockwaves trough them all
I hope that they finally can find some kind of compromise and work together
but they have to understand that who ever is in charge it has to be an
Egyptian not an American or an European.

They have to understand the culture of the Egyptian people and accept
that they are different from our western culture, show them the respect
we all want for our self. And of cause to show some goodwill and send
back those key relics that they trough UNESCO have the right to claim
in honor of their ancient historic importance for their country.
This is what Italy and Ethiopia did and that should set a standard for other
countries who use UN as their world arena in other cases.

So now you have to bann me if you think i am in the wrong topic again :wink:
And you should all be a shamed when someone cant speak their opinion
Just because they dont want to be hated. I hope that you all think of that


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Osiris II wrote:
Early in the 20th century--I think it was shortly before WW I--the Germans had excavation rights to the Amarna area. They worked fro several years, doing a lot of "shore-up" work, but not finding any really impressive items--until they started to excavate the studio of the Royal Sculptor. The finds were almost immediate--first the so-called Death masks, incomplete statues and work studies of various people and groups. And Nefertiti. The bust had evidently been on a wooden shelf, it had collapsed, but the bust was not damaged. When the team found it, it had been covered by drifting sand. When it was cleaned, they realized that they had something really unique and unusual--the bust of the queen of one of the most tantilizing and unknown periods of Egyptian history. An inspector was due to "divvy" up the items found--half to the Egyptian Museum, the remainder, if duplicates, to the German Expedition. The bust was liberally covered with Nile mud, until it looked like a blob of mud, nothing more. A royal seal that had been found was impressed on the mud. When the inspector was examing the objects found, the "blob" of mud with the seal impression was shown. The expedition leader told the inspector that although it was a usless blob of mud, the team wanted to sent it to Berlin to study the impression. The gulible inspector granted their wish, and gave it to them. The woman who was second in command of the group took it to Berlin the next day! It's been there ever since, and has become the instantly recognized symbol of Egypt. Was it theft? No really, techniqually. Deception? Absolutely! Should it be returned to Egypt? In my humble opinion, YES!


This is all right except one thing.. they should share 50/50 on the findings
and if there was a rare finding like the bust was it should be handed over to Egypt.
The Germans did not tell the truth and smuggled the bust out of Egypt
that is what i call theft!

And you all ask "who decide?" there are several resolution signed in the UN (UNESCO) of all member states of cause its not a legal court
but we all have a moral agreement to follow UN resolutions!!


Last edited by Claude II on Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:33 pm 
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Well, you have to remember that it was given up, no matter the condition. Just as Osiris II said (I'm not going to quote him), I believe as well.

Some sneaky people found a loophole and now it seems that either you can be mad, happy or not care.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:53 pm 
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we can say whatever we want, but it's a fact ( and we have all to admit!) that the Nefertiti's bust should be returned to Egypt....period!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:16 pm 
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It isn't a fact, it is an opinion. There's a BIG difference!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:20 pm 
Pharaoh
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it should be returned anyway...maybe I would say to return it the day Hawass is dismissing!! :lol: ....


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:42 pm 
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We can call it what we want... but the fact is the Queen was stolen and should be returned
Why do you sign a resolution in the UN and then argue that
it should not be followed? when you using the UN in other situation
when it suits your goals better? And to Dr. Hawass.. what ever your opinion abut him is. There can never be a reason to not follow
UN Resolution. Every country who is recognized have the right
and freedom to chose the people they want to represent them
and this is called democracy. We practice that in every western
country and protect those rights by law.

I think that this show what kind of people he has to deal with
and of cause there has to be alot of disputes

As i said before i am not the biggest fan of him but he has been put in charge
and i just have to live with that, the common law is the law any way
and we should all think of that before we passes judgement on
Egypt.......


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