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Bintanath
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:19 am 
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The 'Royal Sister; Royal Daughetr; Great Royal Wife; Bintanath' appears on a statue of her brother Merneptah. For some this is proof that they married after her their father's death.

Does this strike anyone as strange given what Bintanath's age would have been at this point. Doesn't anyone think that maybe this Bintanath was the hitherto unnamed daughter Bintanath had with her father and is name in her tomb as 'King's Bodily Daughter'.

Parallels with Nefertari II and ISet Nofret II.

If anyone has read Joyce Tyldesly book they will realise I quote almost word for word from her book but the point has always interested me:-)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:42 pm 
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Bent'anta


A Statue possibly of Bent'anta,
stands in front of the legs of Ramesses II's
Colossi at Karnak

Bent'anta (Bintanath, Bint-Anath, Bintanat) is buried in tomb 71 in the Valley of the Queens. Queen Bent'anta may have become one of Ramesses II's consorts, perhaps after the death's of the king's principal wives and specifically, the death of her mother who was probably Istnofret. One curios aspect of this queen is that her name is distinctly Syrian, and means "Daughter of Anath". We are uncertain of a statue of her, that might instead be of Nefertari, located at the feet of the colossal granite statue of Ramesses II in the first courtyard of the temple at Karnak see per attachement:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories ... queens.htm

But I actually found this very interesting as well.
seems there is something
to this thought
of your's Kiya.

The principal wives of Kings were almost always of royal blood and were often either the full or half sister of the king. These incestuous marriages, which we find few if any examples of in the general population, had several practical benefits to the crown ruler. They kept outsiders at arms length from the royal family, and produced at least a limited number of royal children eligible to inherit the thrown. Furthermore, they also ensured that a suitably trained princess would be placed in the most important role available to an Egyptian woman: that of queen. In fact, while the king could marry a commoner, or for that matter, whoever he wished, royal females could not marry below their royal status, and therefore the field of potential bridegrooms beyond their brother (or sometimes father) was extremely limited. Egyptian princesses were even denied marriage to foreign royalty, who might later claim some justification to the thrown of Egypt.

Interesting No? :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:23 am 
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Did you quote from Tyldesly's book aswell? I've definitely read that paragraph before somewhere:-)

We know the principal wife of Merneptah was Iset Nofret II but that wouldn't have stopped him from marrying another sibling. The titles 'Royal Sister, Royal Daughter, Great Royal Wife' would apply equally to a daughter of Bintanath also named Bintanath:-()


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:30 pm 
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It's also possible that the wife of Merneptah is actually Isetnofret III, the daughter of Prince Khaemwaset. I.e. Merneptah's niece.

Quote:
The principal wives of Kings were almost always of royal blood and were often either the full or half sister of the king.


That's really not true for many cases in the 18th and 19th dynasty, and in other time periods there are quite a few counterexamples as well.

Some of the most important Great Royal wives were not royal: Sitiah and Merytre Hatshepsut (Tuthmosis III), Mutemwia (Tuthmosis IV), Tiye (Amenhotep III), Sitre (Ramsess I), Tuy (Sety I), Nefertari and Isetnofret (Ramses II).

And we really don't know where Nefertiti came from either :)

Even with Tutankhamen and Ankhesenamen we don't know if they were brother-sister or uncle-niece (depends on who you think the father of Tut is).

It's not until the 21st dynasty I think that we see well documented brother-sister marriages again.

I've always found it interesting that Ramses II's sister Tia was allowed to marry outside the royal family. She married a nobleman also called Tia. Their tomb has been found in Saqqara.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:37 pm 
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Statement: I realize you guy's think I'm different; which I will admit. And in so saying as strange as it may seem to hear, "but my father in this lifetime was the same as an Egyptian Lifetime. We have a bond that goes well beyond the ordinary. There is no otherway to explain how I feel so connected to one in another time (lifetime) as it has been made significant in this one. I know, I know, I'm strange. So be it. Still it does not change the reality for either of us in common bond. Ya know what I'm saying. So, of coarse I'm all about the Hatshepsut standing next to her Father on the throne in her very early teen's.
Yes, Kiya I probably found it where you did. Interesting topic don't you think?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:49 am 
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Originally posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
Some of the most important Great Royal wives were not royal: Sitiah and Merytre Hatshepsut (Tuthmosis III), Mutemwia (Tuthmosis IV), Tiye (Amenhotep III), Sitre (Ramsess I), Tuy (Sety I), Nefertari and Isetnofret (Ramses II).


I'm pretty sure that Mutemwiya wasn't the premier Great Royal Wife. I'm almost positive that she wasn't given that status during her husband's reign and only really gained it when her son became pharaoh?

As for Nefertiti, if she was the niece of Tiy, as many suspect, then we don't have to look far for the one who would have promoted the match. I'm sure Tiy would have wanted to keep things in the family. Besides who were the other choices? Princess Baketaten would have been far too young:-)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:52 pm 
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Kiya wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Mutemwiya wasn't the premier Great Royal Wife. I'm almost positive that she wasn't given that status during her husband's reign and only really gained it when her son became pharaoh?


That's true :D Tuthmosis IV had two other wives who played a role during his reign: Nefertiry and Iaret. Iaret was his sister, but seems to have come on the scene after year 5 if I remember correctly. Nefertiry's background is not known for as far as I know.

Kiya wrote:
As for Nefertiti, if she was the niece of Tiy, as many suspect, then we don't have to look far for the one who would have promoted the match. I'm sure Tiy would have wanted to keep things in the family. Besides who were the other choices? Princess Baketaten would have been far too young:-)

I'm not sure I believe that Aye was her father. It seems to be based on his title of It Netjer (God's Father). There's really not much evidence for this theory.
Apparently the Vizier Aperel held this same title (It Netjer) as well as some others he had in common with Aye. Aperel's wife Taweret was buried with even more spectacular funerary equipment as Tuya, Queen Tiye's mother.
So I think it would be just as easy to argue that Aperel was Nefertiti's father. :D Not that I would bet on him being the father either...

And Akhenaten had plenty of royal sisters: Sitamun, Iset, Henuttaneb, Nebetiah and Beketaten. Amenhotep III seems to have married Sitamun and Iset himself (kinda odd). But there were plenty of Royal princesses available it seems to me :)

I always found it interesting that Nefertiti's sister appears at court. You don't really see any other Queen's sisters in the history of AE (Can't think of any other examples). So why was the Queen's Sister Mutnodjemet present? Always made me wonder if they belonged to some collateral branch of the royal family. That's the only reason I can see for Princess Mutnodjemet to be present with the royals. But that's all guesswork on my part :wink:

:D Fun and interesting to think about, isn't it?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:28 am 
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Originally Posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
And Akhenaten had plenty of royal sisters: Sitamun, Iset, Henuttaneb, Nebetiah and Beketaten. Amenhotep III seems to have married Sitamun and Iset himself (kinda odd). But there were plenty of Royal princesses available it seems to me


Yes that's true isn't it but I think he actually gave all his daughters, except Baketaten, the title Royal Wife with Sitamun getting the title 'Great Royal Wife' or 'Kings great Wife' or something like that.

Quote:
I've always found it interesting that Ramses II's sister Tia was allowed to marry outside the royal family. She married a nobleman also called Tia. Their tomb has been found in Saqqara.


According to Tyldesly Tiia married before she became a princess and therefore wasn't considered to have married below her status. Ramses I was chosen to succeed Horemheb because he had a proven ability to father sons. Seti and Ramses (later 'the Great) were already living before their royal destiny became apparent. At the time Tiia married it would have been perfectly naturaly to marry the man she did.

Quote:
It's also possible that the wife of Merneptah is actually Isetnofret III, the daughter of Prince Khaemwaset. I.e. Merneptah's niece.


Whom did Khamwaset marry? I've only ever been able to pick up vague rumors that he married but no name and no indication that there was an Iset Nofret the Third. Makes sense though. He was crown prince for a while so he probably would have made some effort to father and hei should he become pharaoh.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:25 am 
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Khaemwaset is interesting. I think they found correspondence from his household. Wife's name is never mentioned. He did have two sons and a daughter. His eldest son Ramesses was apparently named after the King. Hori, the second son would later become High Priest of Ptah in Memphis, and Hori's son (also named Hori) later became Vizier - he seems to have served under the last kings of the 19th dynasty and the earliest of the 20th dynasty.

I have seen a description of a statue of a royal fanbearer named Khaemwaset and his wife Renenutenopet (or something like that) at a site from the Griffith Institute. But I have no idea if this Khaemwaset is the same as the King's son.

Considering the importance of Khaemwaset and his son and grandson it's interesting that no mention of the lady of the house was ever given.

I had heard the same about Tia - marrying before Ramses I came to the throne. Her tomb is interesting. Given her connection to the royal family, she's not given much prominence in her tomb. The focus seems to mainly be on her husband :D

Did you notice btw that the Univ. of Leiden is on excavation in Saqqara as we speak? They post digging diaries every week:

They have weekly briefings of what happens in the field:
http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/saqqara/In ... y2006.html



Just for reference: This is the main website for Saqqara Online:
http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/saqqara/homepage.htm

The page about the tombs that have been excavated is really interesting!
Here's a short-cut:
http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/saqqara/Ex ... Tombs.html
__
Some quotes:

Quote:
This project aims at consolidating and preparing for public access all the tombs found by our expedition from 1975 onwards.
...
This year, the efforts will be concentrated on the tombs of Maya and Meryneith.
...
More team members will arrive on February 6, and by that time we also hope to have started our limited excavations on the forecourt of the tomb of Tia. Next week, we hope to report you on the first results of that dig!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:29 pm 
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I found this interesting:
http://portaljuice.com/ramses_ii.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramses_II


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:17 am 
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Hm I would imagine rameses would end up with a lot of grand children. What of those of Nefertari's children? with Amun-her-khepchef (spelling?) being crown prince for over 20 years, I would think that would give him time to produce some children. yett they aren't mentioned? :x


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:38 am 
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Originally posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
Khaemwaset is interesting. I think they found correspondence from his household. Wife's name is never mentioned. He did have two sons and a daughter. His eldest son Ramesses was apparently named after the King. Hori, the second son would later become High Priest of Ptah in Memphis, and Hori's son (also named Hori) later became Vizier - he seems to have served under the last kings of the 19th dynasty and the earliest of the 20th dynasty.


Well Ramses had plenty of daughters, Khamwase could easily have married one of those but he could easily have married one of his elder nieces, possibly by Amenhirkhopshef as someone has suggested.
What I find interesting is that Merneptah married Iset Nofret II, the 6th daughter of Ramses. Khamwase was 4th son so I would pressume he would marry b4 Merneptah. If Merneptah married the 6th daughter it makes more sense to speculate that Khamwase married an elder daughter than Iset Nofrett II. Now lets see. Bintanath married her father, so did Meritamun and so did Nebtauwi, of course this doesn't mean they didn't marry their brothers also. Look at what happened to the Amarna princesses, but it would seem to narrow the field of possible candidates down to Princesses Baketmut (died early); Nefertari II (died early). And if Khamwase married one of these daughters then who did Amenhirkhopshef marry. Being Crown Prince he must have married someone.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:45 am 
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Dodson mentions in his book about the royal families that Merneptah may have married Isetnofret III - the daughter of Khaemwaset - and not his sister.
For as far as I can tell they don't really know the parentage of Merneptah's wives.
Merneptah may have also married a Bintanath, but that could also have been a sister or a niece of his (as mentioned above). Seems they tried to keep it in the family though :D


I wonder if the royal princes could have married half-sisters who were offspring of lower ranked wives of Ramses? The princes would have had close to 50 sisters and half sisters to choose from.

I always thought it funny that Prince #23. Simentu married Iryet, the daughter of Benanath, A Syrian ship’s captain. So at least one dated outside the royal palace :D

I for the life of me can't remember if I mentioned it on this board, but there's a statue mentioned on the Griffith Institute website:

Kaemweset, Fan-bearer of the Lord of the Two Lands, and wife Renpeten(t)opet, Royal sistrum-player of (the statue of) Usermaetre-setepenre (Ramesses II) Montu in the Two Lands

Now Khaemwaset may have been a common enough name but I always wondered if this could be our famous prince.
The title of the wife is rather interesting as well: Royal sistrum player.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:25 am 
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Yes i've just read Dodson's book. Going to have another look at the section on the Ramssids to see if I missed anything or can pick up any extra clues:-)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:16 pm 
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Yes, it seems interesting that they don't mention if some of Nefertari's daughters married a brother of theres. Although I would doubt they'd marry a son of Isetnofret, in some ways wouldn't that be marrying below yourself? I mean nefertari was great royal wife, even though IsetNofret is a bit popular, there could only be one great royal wife at a time.
I wonder why they don't mention a wife of Amun-Her-Khepchef?? he had to have had one :) The weird thing is, I've never heard of any of Nefertari's sons marrying a daughter of Isetnofret either? I have to wonder why? unless Rameses did not aprove of them mingling in that matter? which would be unlikely since he seemed to treat the children pretty equal. Or one of the wives did not aprove of there children mingling together?? as before it seems unlikely but I must say it makes me wonder 8)


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