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Tuthmosis III and Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 5:55 am 
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I'm sure this has been discussed in another topic somewhere, if so, please point me in the right direction but I was watching a documentary on Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis III the other day and it occured to me that mayne Tuthmosis, for whatever reason, didn't want to/or wasn't ready to become pharaoh.
Perhaps he was scared of the enormous responsibility that faced him. Perhaps he was more happy as a military man and not interested in running the country content to let his aunt'step mother run things.
I just find it odd that it appears that he gave her a proper buriel and didn't start defacing her monuments until years after she died. I also question why Hatshepsut would go to such lengths to prove her suitability to rule but leave Tuthmosis unharmed when the sensible thing to do would have been to have him quietly assasinated. If Tuthmosis has been killed I don't think she would have had to resort to such lengths. There were many powerful women who came before her and may even have reigned as pharaohs but they didn't portray themselves as men. Sobeknefru, possibly Nitocris??????

This is all just speculation on my part but it seems to make a lot of sense. What do you guys think???


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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 9:55 pm 
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This subject probably has been discussed before at KingTutOne, but seeing as how I'm new here and wouldn't know where to direct you, Kiya, perhaps I can provide some help myself.

When the unremarkable Tuthmosis II died in around 1479 BCE, the crown prince Tuthmosis III Menkheperre was but a young boy and unable to rule on his own. The half-sister and wife of Tuthmosis II, Hatshepsut, stepped up as regent for her young nephew (Tuthmosis III was the son of Tuthmosis II by a minor wife named Aset).

The study of Hatshepsut is a lesson in political maneuvering; she was a strong-willed, shrewd, and intelligent woman. By about the seventh year of rule of the young Tuthmosis III, Hatshepsut set herself up as pharaoh and took on a full royal titularly. And she ruled as pharaoh for the next twenty-some years while Tuthmosis III languished in the background; interestingly, however, Tuthmosis III was also regarded as king at the same time, but it was Hatshepsut who truly held power. To accomplish this she most certainly had to have powerful allies among the high-ranking courtiers in the Egyptian government.

She also had enemies, or in the very least men who were openly suspicious of her role as pharaoh. Though there was precedent for a woman on the throne, it was never a desirable outcome. It ran counter to the core of Egyptian religo-politics. Make no mistake that ancient Egypt was a pure theocracy, bound by religious precepts to its core.

In this respect the royals were viewed somewhat as mirror images of the gods. Osiris was the first rightful king--a man--and Isis his loyal wife--a woman. Once Osiris was murdered, and after the Ennead ruled that Set had acted counter to maat and that Horus was the rightful heir, Horus, son of Osiris, then took the throne. We see here that the king is a man and his heir is a man, and that is the way of things.

So a woman on the throne made for unpleasant circumstances. Hence, Hatshepsut was known to have herself depicted as male in royal statuary and reliefs, to make her more acceptable. There's no evidence as of yet that any attempt ever took place to unseat her, but for certain she must have ruled with a heavy brow. Still, she did a marvelous job. Hatshepsut is one of my favorite pharaohs. She ruled a peaceful and prosperous Egypt and, in my humble opinion, left us one of the world's most remarkable architectural accomplishments in her mortuary temple at Deir el-Bahri. And at her temple she left in its walls the story of her proudest accomplishment: the lucrative trading expedition to Punt. Among those reliefs is one of the most memorable figures ever carved, the rather "ample" queen of Punt (note the figure second in from the right).

Hatshepsut died around 1458 BCE, and that's when Tuthmosis III Menkheperre finally assumed full control of the throne. We all know the story of Tuthmosis III, the great warrior king and conquerer of vast swaths of Lower Nubia and ancient Palestine.

Egyptologists have begun to rethink the defacing of the monuments and reliefs of Hatshepsut at the hands of her nephew, Tuthmosis III. It used to be the thought that he ordered their destruction immediately upon taking full control of the throne, as an act of vengeance for having been forced into the background for so many years even though he was rightful king and heir. But that's no longer the thought. It is now known that Hatshepsut's monuments were not defaced until many years after Tuthmosis III's full rise to power. He himself may not have had anything to do with it--it's possible courtiers ordered it done in his name. But it's also possible he felt compelled reluctantly to go ahead and order it, to restore the proper sense of maat to the throne for the sake of posterity. In other words, there's no real evidence to suggest that Tuthmosis III felt anything but affection for his aunt, even if she did keep him stashed away for so many years.

I hope this is of some help, Kiya. And I also hope I didn't bore you to tears. Sorry this got so long. :oops: I just happen to be a big fan of Hatshepsut. Heck, the whole 18th Dynasty, for that matter.


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:03 am 
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As a side note, it used to be the case that Egyptologists thought that the opposite were true of Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis' co-regency. It was once believed that it was Tuthmosis who ruled the political affairs of Egypt whilst Hatshepsut focused on the religious aspects of the country. This opinion is now outdated, but seems to be scarily common knowledge. Kmt_Sesh has done an excellent job of explaining the more likely passage of events during their co-regency.

Most Egyptologists now believe the the pair enjoyed a harmonious co-regency, each governing over the aspects of Egypt that most suited their personality. Tuthmosis seems to have led several succesfull military campaigns into Upper Egypt, whilst Hatshepsut concentrated on building Egypt's economy up to the peak of its success.


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:07 pm 
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Quote:
Tuthmosis seems to have led several succesfull military campaigns into Upper Egypt, whilst Hatshepsut concentrated on building Egypt's economy up to the peak of its success.


I think the ancient Egyptians were fortunate to have Hatshepsut. Maybe they benefited from a woman's perspective? Let the man go off and conquer the foreigners so the tribute keeps flowing in, while the woman manages the checkbook and keeps the economy robust. :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:09 am 
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Quote:
Still, she did a marvelous job. Hatshepsut is one of my favorite pharaohs. She ruled a peaceful and prosperous Egypt and, in my humble opinion, left us one of the world's most remarkable architectural accomplishments in her mortuary temple at Deir el-Bahri. And at her temple she left in its walls the story of her proudest accomplishment: the lucrative trading expedition to Punt. Among those reliefs is one of the most memorable figures ever carved, the rather "ample" queen of Punt (note the figure second in from the right).


Yes I agree Kmt_sesh. When I visited Deir el-Bahri I just stood in front of the temples and gazed in awe for about half an hour before going in.


Originally poseted by Psusennes I

Quote:
Most Egyptologists now believe the the pair enjoyed a harmonious co-regency, each governing over the aspects of Egypt that most suited their personality. Tuthmosis seems to have led several succesfull military campaigns into Upper Egypt, whilst Hatshepsut concentrated on building Egypt's economy up to the peak of its success.



Yeah that's my point. We all know who Hatshepsut was and that she took the throne contrary to convention but they seemed to have had a very, as you say, harmonious rule. I think, for whatever reason, Tuthmosis wasn't ready to take up sole rule but every documentary on tv seems to portray him as being usurped and forced to remain in the background while his eveil aunt/stepmother stole his inheritance. He seems to have been happy being a soldier.

Originally posted by Kmt_sesh
Quote:
And I also hope I didn't bore you to tears. Sorry this got so long. I just happen to be a big fan of Hatshepsut. Heck, the whole 18th Dynasty, for that matter.


Hell know you could go on for ever about egypt and never bore me. I'm sure the others would aggree:-)


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:40 am 
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Well, if they lived in harmony ruling alongside eachother then why were her monuments smashed? Do you believe it to be the work of later kings?


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:45 am 
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One word answer: Yes.


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 10:07 am 
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Oki Koki!


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:01 pm 
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I found it kinda interesting to read that in the tomb of Kenamun (TT93) (temp. Amenhotep II) there is a scene showing offering bringers and statuettes of Amenhotep II, his father Tuthmosis III AND Hatshepsut.

So apparently she was worshipped during the reign of Amenhotep II. Which is later than I initially expected.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:29 pm 
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From what I heard Thutmosis III destroyed everything doing with his aunt. It's funny theres' this Cartoon History of the Universe. And in volumes 1-7 are from the big bang to the death of Alexander the Great.

There's this scene where Thutmosis is in a warrior pose stepping on his enemies bodies and he says. "That will show her!"
And the author goes on to say that he didn't think Thutmosis was "Great" just the start of a "Nasty Dynasty".

Really, they put the Thutmosis hatred for his Aunt in almost every childrens book I read about them.


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