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Akhenaten's childhood.
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:18 pm    Post subject: Akhenaten's childhood. Reply with quote

Has anyone got any information about the early year of Akhenate, from his birth to his ascension. Did he grow up in Malkata? in the harem? Where? What was his relationship towards his parents in this time, or his uncle Ay. When did he and Nefertiti marry? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some information on Akhenaten childhood. It is from Akhenaten, King of Egypt by Cyril Aldred pg 259.

"In infancy Prince Amenhotep like his grandfaterh Thutmose IV, chould have entertained little hope that he would ever mount the throne of his ancestors."

It is believed by Aldred that he inherited his elder brother's offices such as the Governor of Memphis and High Priest of Ptah. The office of High Priest held another title "Greatest of Craftsmen". This made him (Ptah's High Priest) responsible for the design of art-works of all kinds. According to Aldred, pg 259, "It may be these aspects of his duties that are referred to by his Chief Architect Ma'nakhtuf, and his Chief sSculptor Bek, when each describes himself as 'the apprentice whom His Majesty taught'."

On pg. 260, Aldred writes, " It would seem, however, that Amenhotep had a palace in the town ( Heliopolis of the None of On).

In Joann Fletcher' book, Chronoicle of a Pharaoh, The Intimate Life of Amenhotep III, pg 108. "The only cetain reference to Prince Amenhotep from his father's reign appears to be on a jar seal inscribed "the estate of the king's son Amenhotep."

I am sorry there isn't more, it is somewhat understandable as a 2nd son, he didn't count for much... as like in Great Britian where it counts if you're the eldest, not a younger.

Regarding your questions about Akhenaten's relationship with his parents. I see no reason to wonder. Even if you do not accept a long or short co-regencey betwee Akhenaten and his father. For the Cult of Aten to have spring full born at the beginning of Akhenaten's reign, with estates, temples, land, priests, theology. Akhenaten had to have the support of his father for this to happen. As for his mother, he built her a suntemple in Akhetaten, made beautiful furnerary gifts for her. The amount of not talked about items relating to both of his parents found in recent years of digging at Akhetaten make it clear to me that he had a pretty good relationship with his parents.

Again there is no "proof" that Ay was AKhenaten's uncle. It is a belief, and when it comes to the Amarna Royal's speculative belief is often accepted as solid evidence. It isn't and should be remembered there is no "proof".

i hope this has been a help.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Akhenaten live at the Malkata Palace. This palace located on the western bank of the Nile River. It was built late into the reign of Amenhotep III according to Joann Fletcher's book, Chronicle of a Pharaoh, The Intimate Life of Amenhotep III pg 128.

"At the end of his third decade as king, Amenhotep moved his court permanently to Thebes, where he had built "the palace of the dazzling Aten." Later known by its Arabic name, Malkata, "the place where things are picked up" (because it is littered with ancient debris), the palace stood stood on the Theban West Back below the western hills where the sun set each evening, and directly opposite the king's temple of Luxor. Amenhotep's move to Thebes was in direct contrast with the behavior of previous pharaohs, who had based themelves at the traditional capital of menphis and had only come wouth to Thebes for the annual religious festivals, setting p temporary court in palace building attached to Karnak temple. In constructing an independent palace, not only at the other end of the city from Karnak, but also on the opposite bank of the river, Amenhotep was clearly distancing himself from the Karnak clergy."

Discovered in 1888, the palace is a huge complex sparwling over 30 hectares which was still being added to and emblelished that Amenhotep's death. The king's apartments was located in the southeast section, Queen Tiy's to the south and Sitamun's to the north. There were quarters for the rest of the royal family, numerous royal women, and resiences for hisgh officials and servants.

Now if you don't accept a coregency of any lenght between Amenhotep and his son... there is a possibility that yes, Akhenaten did live for a time at the palace. If he wasn't living in his own estate nearby. However, if you do accept a long period of coregency between father and son. He still may have lived at the palace but the lenght of time shorten because he did move his capital city to Akhetaten, in the 5th year of his reign and settled there about his 9th year.

So where might have Akhenaten grew up? The royal palace at Gurob is a good possibility. It was the palace that Amenhotep had lived at as a young boy. It is located in the southwest of el-Lahun in the Fayuum oasis, on the edge of he desert. It is often referred to as a harem palace. One of Amenhotep's favored guardians came from this area. Then Akhenaten might have grown up in Memphis... i think Gurob is more likely because in Queen Tiy's later years it was one of her favorites.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do some people think that Ay was Akhenatens unlce if there is not proof?Is it somewhere said that Tiy had a brother.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Why do some people think that Ay was Akhenatens unlce if there is not proof?Is it somewhere said that Tiy had a brother.


Hi Ankhesenamun3... Why do folks think that Ay was Akhenaten's uncle?
Because he had such an important position under Akhenaten.
In the tomb of Tiy's mother and father, a son of theirs is mentioned along with Tiy... His name was An, various spellings. But Ay wasn't mentioned. Funny, yes? The reason why experts claim he wasn't mentioned was because he hadn't achieved a great position prior to their mother's death for her to brag about him on her funerary goods. (Which is where we learn of An and Tiy.)

Tiy's father Yuya held the titles Master of the Horse, and The God's Father. Ay held both of these titles under Akhenaten. The experts say, see this is further proof, sons often inherited their father's titles. Okay, what these experts don't tell you is that Yuya died sometime before his wife died. So then Ay inherited these titles during the reign of Amenhotep III but he didn't because Tiy's mom didn't brag about him.

Then there is the supposed similarity between the names Ay, and Yuya. Do you see it? It is only if you cut and paste but hey their dead who is going to complain? Let us not forget that noble men of these men rank often had nicknames... so where is the similarity? i have actually read where one expert took a formal name gave it to both Ay and Yuya and then proceeded to slice and dice it until the nicknames could be Ay or Yuya plus others. Yuya in his intact tomb gives no name but Yuya for himself... Ay outside of his throne names, is never known by any name but Ay! Not even in his Amarna tomb is there another name listed for him.

So yes, we do know that Akhenaten had an uncle on his mother's side. His name was An. However the proof that Ay was Akhenaten's uncle on his mother's side is not there in a proof positive way. Ay makes no reference to his parents. For all we know he may have been a son of An, or a son of a child of an earlier Pharaoh. He certainly thought he had as good if not better claim to Horemheb to the throne. Which would indicate to me, that if he was related to Akhenaten it was through the same royal line that Akhenaten was related to. Not the noble house of Yuya that Akhenaten was related to by his mother.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Sekhmet for explaining that Smile . I know comparing the names really would not make since really because Tiy and Kiya kind of sound the same (so they are related). So is Nefertiti Ay's daughter? And what proof is there even of that. Confused I once read thet Tiy was the nickname for Nefertiti I forgot where I read this but it is confusing because they do not sound or look the same at all?
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome Ankhesenamun. i see your point about Tiy and Kiya and i agree with you.

So is Nefertiti, Ay's daughter? Another million dollar question. Again the answer is there is no solid proof. So why do some and by all means not all experts believe Ay is Nefertiti's father. In part because of the titles Ay shares in common with Yuya... the reason this time is, well Yuya was the father-in-law of Amenhotep III therefore Ay must be the father of Nefertiti because he has the same powerful titles i.e., father of the God, and Master of the Horse. However how being father of the God relates to being the father of the Pharaohs' wife isn't explained. Anymore than being Master of the Horse relates to being the father of Pharaohs' wife.

Another often quoted "proof" is that in the early Amarna reliefs that survive we can find Mutnodjmet, whose only title is 'sister of Nefertiti'. We do know that in Ay's tomb at Amarna, Mutnodjmet is despicted in it. This being taken as 'proof' that she was his daughter. However, Nefertiti is not recongized in it other than as his Queen at the side of Akhenaten.
Here the discussion usually turns to the only known wife of Ay. Often called Tiy II, to keep her seperate from Queen Tiy and because in Ay's royal tomb she is recongized as his own Great Royal wife. Although it is generally accepted that she was dead long before he came to the throne. Tiy II, in surviving Amarna reliefs has only the title as the Goddess' Nurse and Governess. She is never recongized as Nefertiti's mother, therefore she is not accepted as being the mother of Nefertiti. i am not even sure if she is universially accepted as the mother of Mutnodjmet. i have read some experts that accept the theory that Ay was the brother of Q. Tiy I, was actually raising his nieces the daughters, of yet another unknown sibbling of Q. Tiy I. Yet, if this theory holds any water, they do not explain why Mutnodjmet is in Ay's tomb as a daughter while Nefertiti is not. Other experts explain that Nefertiti is actually Ay's daughter by some unknown first wife. Again if this is true why is neither of them in his tomb?

So we have only a few surviving reliefs where Ay's daughter Mutnodjmet is called the 'sister of Nefertiti'. We can accept this literally as most do. Or we can ask IS THERE ANY OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLAINATION FOR THIS? Again, yes there is and it is in Tiy II being the recongized "the nurse" of Nefertiti. Throughtout, history the children of nurses are often considered as a kind of sibling to the nursing child belonging to another couple. Since Mutnodjmet, was the child of Ay, a very important offical of Akhenaten, and the child(?) of Tiy II the Nurse and Governess of Nefertiti. Mutnodjmet's title of being "sister" to Nefertiti might have been strictly honorific and not biological at all.

The third "proof" accepted of Ay being Nefertiti's father by those that accept it. Is that Horemheb did marry a woman with the name of Mutnodjmet. In one of his reliefs, he claims that the "daughter of Pharaoh bowed to him".
Since most experts kill, Q. Ankhesenamun, off shortly after a forced marriage to Ay, to cement his right to the throne. And all of her sisters at about the same time as Tutankhamun succeeds to the throne. This leaves very few "daughter(s) of Pharaoh" around to be bowing to Horemheb. Smile These experts reason it had to be Mutnodjmet the daughter of Pharaoh Ay. Of course these experts claim this gives Horemheb the 'right' to the throne. Because he married the daughter of Pharaoh. Of course Amenhotep III and Akhenaten didn't do this and it did not seem to threaten their rights to the throne is dismissed. The fact is... the Mutnodjmet that Horemheb did marry is not claimed by him or her to be the daughter of Pharaoh Ay and as one expert stated may not even be the same person.

So there you have it... is Ay's Nefertiti father? Since none of the "proofs" are really anything substantial, i don't accept Ay as Nefertiti's father. Of course you and others are free to accept the proofs as given.

As for Tiy being a nickname of Nefertiti. i do believe i have read something along that line myself. Nothing current i assure you... today, it is too well known that they were two different women. Or three if you count Ay's wifely Tiy. Smile

Venturing a guess i would suggest that it relates to Dr. Velikovsky's work titled Akhenaten and Oedipus. In this book, he compares the known life at his time (1930-1956) of AKhenaten with the character from a play by a Greek writer some 900 years after the death and forgotten memory of AKhenaten. It is an interesting theory where he believes that Akhenaten (Oedipus) married his mother Queen Tiy. Here may be the source of the Tiy is a nickname for Nefertiti, it may not too but it is the only thing i can think of that might account for it.

i hope this is a help Smile and have a nice day.

If you are interested in more of this Akhenaten/Oedipus work of Dr. Velikovsky. Please go the Pharaohs topic and cursor down until you find the thread Akhenaten/Oedipus the theory is explored in some depht there.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile Thank You, again Sekhmet for helping me to futher understand.

I guess most egyptologists do a huge amount educated guessing.I bet that is where Tiy as the nick-name of Nefertiti did come from it makes sense , and the Tiy Nefertiti nick-name thing does not.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Smile Thank You, again Sekhmet for helping me to futher understand.

I guess most egyptologists do a huge amount educated guessing.I bet that is where Tiy as the nick-name of Nefertiti did come from it makes sense , and the Tiy Nefertiti nick-name thing does not.


At first i didn't know how quite to answer your statement about Egyptianologists doing a huge amount of educated guessing. In the end i guess your right again Smile However i would like to expand on why they do.

They are for the most part terribly pressed for time. They are the experts in the remains of Ancient Egypt but for the most part they are all archaeologists, not anthropologists. And it is here that their guessing shows that they are archaeologists and not anthropologists. An related but very seperated field Ankhesenamun3. Archaeologists learn how to dig, preserve, and to read the remains of what they bring up. They don't have the expertice always to understand what it is. They have uncovered in relation to the greater culture they are working in. This is really, the work of those in the field of cultural anthropology.

Because the archaeologist Egyptianologist is so pressed for time. They have to write up their findings, publish them, lecture on them and they find so much. It is hard, i believe, for them to detach themselves; which can take time to do, from their findings and think about it in the greater light that a cultural anthropologist does by training and education.

i hope this is a help in letting you understand how some of these huge guess' make it into print to confuse the reader, sometimes. It is always a pleasure to be a help i am glad i was able to help you Smile Thanks
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Tadukhipa
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Sekhmet! I'm loving your info here!

Personally, I accept the theory of Aye as Nefertiti's father/Tiye's brother, though I'll admit that there's no way of being 100% sure. All the pieces of non-solid evidence just fall together quite nicely that way, but I agree that we need solid proof to be sure.

But keep the info coming! (I admit it. I'm a die-hard Amarna fan. Wink )
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egyptogists also do not have much to work with. Because alot of the evidence has been erased over time. So people can think one thing and then someone finds one tomb or artifact that chances everything.It must be a hard job.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tadukhipa wrote:

Personally, I accept the theory of Aye as Nefertiti's father/Tiye's brother, though I'll admit that there's no way of being 100% sure. All the pieces of non-solid evidence just fall together quite nicely that way, but I agree that we need solid proof to be sure.

But keep the info coming! (I admit it. I'm a die-hard Amarna fan. Wink )


Welcome back Tadukhipa,
i suggest Tadukhipa that the pieces of non-solid evidence falling together quite nicely is designed to do so by those that established those theories. There are few things human beings dislike more is unanswered questions!
Anyway you go ahead and accept them most do. Smile i am glad that you are enjoying the information, and i will try to keep it coming.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Egyptogists also do not have much to work with. Because alot of the evidence has been erased over time. So people can think one thing and then someone finds one tomb or artifact that chances everything.It must be a hard job.


A late welcome back to you too Ankhesenamun Smile

Yes, they are fighting a terrible lack of data to assist them in their work. And yes, then they find missing links that result in terrible problems as new knowledge comes into the light. i think you've hit some of the problems archaeologists face on the head of the nail, nicely thankyou Smile
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this site that gives general information--supposedly about Nefertiti's parents, siblings and some children--but it doesn't list any sources for its information, which is very dissapointing if you want to do your own reading. The site is:

http://www.glintofgold.org/palace/bio/nefertiti.html
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
I found this site that gives general information--supposedly about Nefertiti's parents, siblings and some children--but it doesn't list any sources for its information, which is very dissapointing if you want to do your own reading. The site is:

http://www.glintofgold.org/palace/bio/nefertiti.html


Thanks Osiris II!
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