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Nefertiti vrs Smenkhara
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courtz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:23 am    Post subject: Nefertiti vrs Smenkhara Reply with quote

What's every1s opinion on Nefertiti being Smenkhara - I don't reckon... if she did change why waste alll the time building up her coregency just to change your name

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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not believe Nefertiti and Smenkhkare are the same person. I think that Smenkhkare may have been a son of Akhenatens by another lesser wife like perhaps Kiya and the older brother of Tutankhamun. Because I do not understand how Smenkhkare is believed to have been married to Nefertiti's eldest daughter Meriaten and still they question was Smenkhkare Nefertiti. Okay Maybe Akhenaten could have married his own deughters but Nefertiti too. But in my book it said that Meriaten is believed to have been married to Smenkhkare what evidence they have of this and proof I am not sure I will check my other books to see if I can really find proof to suport this theory. So I believe that Nefertiti and Smenkhkare are two different Egyptian , but I also wonder if they could have been the same people.

Last edited by Ankhesenamun3 on Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Nefertiti vrs Smenkhara Reply with quote

courtz wrote:
What's every1s opinion on Nefertiti being Smenkhara - I don't reckon... if she did change why waste alll the time building up her coregency just to change your name


Hi Courtz,
First to answer your 2nd question first. Why would Nefertiti change her name?
To make it easier for her to hide her femininity in a society that didn't really allow women the right to rule without male consort. Coming after Pharaoh Hatshepsut, this anti-female rule would have been espeically sharp.

My opinion of the Nefertiti being Smenkhara is that it is an attempt to gather even more public interest in newer work being done at Amarna in reality it holds no water.

Where does this idea come from? Considereing that it is about the Amarna royals it is understandable. Because from the first discoveries at Amarna dating to 1824 by John Garner Wilkinson to later expeditions of the 1830's there has been a "mystery" about this city, and its founder. At the very start there were questions about the two key persons found on the reliefs there. Where they two queens? Yes, at first it was considered that both Akhenaten and Nefertiti were two queens. (See Akhenaten, King of Egypt, by Cyril Aldred, pgs 16-18.) Because the way Akhenaten was shown in much of the artwork there.

This isn't as weird as it may seem actually because at this time Champollion was still working on his hieroglyphs decipherment. Even after he finished, it took time for other folks to learn and to translate the hieroglyphs.

At Amarna art forms, reliefs didn't follow the already accepted by western scholars, norms for Egyptian artwork. Amarna's art was freeer, broke from tradition, the royal daughters despicted unlike any other groupings of royal daughter. Temple scenes were different, no Amun, Mut, Orisis, Isis, Horus.
Since things didn't jive with what scholars thought should be, they advanced theories about that they thought they were seeing. Manetho, the Egyptian scribe who gave the world the Dynastic divisions we still use today hadn't even mentioned this "royal family".

Like i said, one of the first errors in the scholars thinking was that both Akhenaten, and Nefertiti were women. Later when it was possible to read hieroglphs it was discovered that WOW! It was a normal family grouping male, female, and children. But this new understanding didn't explain why Akhenaten had himself despicted in such an unpharaonic way. While other errors in the thinking about this family continued.... Why Akhenaten was a devoted family man. Not only had he rooted out Amun and the other gods, started the first monotheistic religion, he had only one wife exclusively, and no sons.

Then more information became available thanks to being able to read hieroglphs. Came even more questions such as...Who was Smekhara, who was Meritaten Tashery, who was Ankhesepa-aten Tashery, who was Kiya? And who were the parents of Tutankhamun whose tomb had been found in 1922? What happened to Nerfertiti, what happened to the other daughters. Questions, questions, questions but the ancients kept silent. Because Horemheb and his successors had done their job, silencing the "Great Criminal" Akhenaten so completely. So completely we still today don't know how long Akhenaten ruled, or even if he ruled in a co-regency along side his father for a long time or short time.

An unpleasent truth in Western society is that until very recently to be a homosexual was to be despised. In some of the few surviving reliefs, we find Akhenaten, embracing a Smenkhara with both of their names in cartouches! Yes, some folks got so upset with this. That in time folks began to see a comparasion between the throne names of Nefertiti and Smenkhara and began thinking. That perhaps the so beloved Queen of Akhenaten actually shed her femininity and took the the throne disguised as a male to continue the Aten religious revoluation! This made the reliefs of Akhenaten and Smenkhara embracing more tolerable. This theory by the way was advanced first by Professor J.R.Harris and is mostly dismissed by other Egyptianologists. (See Akhenaten, King of Egypt by Cyril Aldred, pg 228).

There is much more but this is the origin of the Smenkhara/Nefertiti identification problem, and i hope it helps.
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Tadukhipa
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I like the theory of there being, in a way, "two Smenkhkares".

First of all there's "Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten" (aka Nefertiti), and then there's "Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare" (aka Smenkhkare).

For more info check out this great website: http://www.heptune.com/smenkhka.html
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that makes sense.I do not think they would be the same person "Ankhkheperure Nefernefeuaten" and "Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare."
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right this is a theory, so bear with me. I thought that Nefertiti died years before Akhenaten (possibly in year twelve) he then married his daughter so he had a royal wife. That bit is fact, Nefertiti disappears at about the same time. Just before Akhenaten died he realised he could not leave the country to an eight year old boy (Tutankhaten, his son) so instead he left it to his mature adult [brother] so that atenism would not be threatened. Smenkhare did not outlive his brother Akhanaten for long and in the end the fears of Akhenaten were shown to be well founded when Tutankhaten ascended to the throne and, under the guidance of Ay changed the religion back to Monotheism and tried to rebuild lost Egyptian strength. This theory seems quite logical to me. If Tutankhamun and Smenkhare why was there an age gap of about 15 years? When he ascended Smenkhare was easily old enough to rule in the eyes of Akhenaten and his officials. Most kings began to assume more direct power at the age of seventeen/eighteen (e.g. Tutankhamun's brief try at taking over from Regent Ay before his death). This made Smenkhare at least ten years older than Tutankhamun. All of his other children were born in a few short years, with small age gaps between children. Ten years between births seems a long way. It does however tie in with the dates of Amenhotep an Tiy. If Tiy concieved closely to the point of Amenhotep's death the new son would not be pictured on any monuments of his father and few monuments from the early years of Akhenaten remain, and those which do depict the King and Queen and their children. This is just my theory though, it just seems the most logical. (By the way I do not believe in a co-regency between Akhenaten and his fatherlasting more than two or at the most three years.)
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Si-Amun when it comes to the Amarna royals logic always seems to disappear. Slowly it is coming back into the picture. As for the ages you believe various royals were are not actually proven to be real. There is apparently a span of some years between Smenkhkara and Tutankhamun it can be explained in various ways. Deaths of siblings between them, living but unknown siblings between them. A fall in favor between Smenkhkara's birth and the birth of Tutankhamun. Because i believe they are both the sons of Nefertiti the difference in ages can be explained by the birth of sisters between them.

You are right about Nefertiti dieing before Akhenaten, the best scholars of the period will say about it is that she apparently was alive at year 12 and dead by year 14. As for Meritaten marrying her father, this too is speculation... her being referred to as Mistress of Akhenaten's house by Burna-Burias II King of Babylon only indictes to me anyway... that she had overtaken the duties of her dead mother with regards to her father... something many eldest daughters do when their mother dies leaving a grieving father alone. They don't normally fill their father's bed but they do take control of the house. I actually think Burna-Burias II, within the boundries of international dialogue with another King, was attempting to comfort him for the loss of his Queen by reminding Akhenaten he had their daughter as primary court lady.

As for Akhenaten leaving his country to a young Tutankhamun... Amenhotep III wasn't much older when he came to the throne. Ahmose was even far younger, and Thutmose III was closer to Ahmose's age than Amenhotep III's. So i don't think age had that much to do with it. Smenkhkara was the next in line, be it as son or brother of Akhenaten.
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PharoahKel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why didnt Smenkahre ever rule?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But he did PharaohKel, experts believe he ruled for at least 3 years. Then he like so many Amarna royals, disappears.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooh, didnt know that. Hmm.....
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And then there is Ankhesenpaaten and Meritaten the younger. Who was there father who was there mother. Was Ankhesenpaaten-the-Younger the daughter of Ankhesenamun and her fater Akhenaten named after her mother or was she the daughter of Nefertiti and Akhenaten.Both girls disappeared no one really knows one really happened to them.

In the Amarna royal tomb there is a scene of Nefertiti and Akhenaten mouring over their daughters body.The daughter is Meketaten and there is a baby in the scene some say this show Meketaten died in child birth.And there is no father in the scene unless Akhenaten himself is the father. There is no proof that the baby is Akhenaten's because maybe the scene shows a royal mourning and the father was not present in such a mourning.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused I thought that Smenkhare and Meritaten married?
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OKay Ankhesenamun 3, you have asked a couple of million dollar questions!

Many are the Egyptianologists that would pay to know what you are asking. Smile Joyce Tyldesley in her book Nefertiti writes on page 168-167.
The younger Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten "appear to be the daughters of an unnamed king, who is generally assumed to be Akhenaten." She goes on " The clear implication is that Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten must have been the mothers of their father's children." Oh boy! Isn't that convincing? Note the words... appear to be, generally assumed, clear implication, must have... if we used those words in a court of law we would be thrown out.

However, once again there is no proof of this... another reason why myself when discussing the Amarna Royals, i insist on knowning the "proof" of the stated belief. Because so many of the "beliefs" and "facts of knowledge" are based only upon speculation and little more. If the proof is substantial i accept it... if it is mostly circumstantial, or speculative i don't have to accept it. i am free to look at it more as an cultural anthropologist where the study of man within his culture is looked at. This allows me to try to come to a more reasonable explaination if there it one. Few Egyptianologists are anthropologists, most are simply archaeologists.

The standing belief regarding these royals. Is Meritaten married her father then gave birth. She then married Smenkhkara who had become co-regent and Akhenaten married Ankhesenpaaten who then gave birth to another daughter. Then when Akhenaten, Smenkhkara, and Meritaten died, Ankhesenpaaten married Tutankhamun.

What supports this belief is the fact that Amenhotep III did marry his daughters Sitamun, and Isis. (Some, myself included believe Sitamun to be his sister, adopted by him and his wife.) But Isis was Tiy's daughter by him. There is one other piece of support for this belief and it is the mention by the King of Babylon of Meritaten as "Misterss of your (Akhenaten) house".

The problems are:
1) The king is unnamed.
a. Akhenaten never had any problem with aknowledging the births of his
royal daughters by Nefertiti or by Kiya surely he wouldn't have had a
problem with aknowledging the daughters of his daughters if he was
the father.
b. Smenkhkara was also a king at Amarna and he was co-regent to
Akhenaten. As coregent in Akhetatan, had he fathered a daughter
while Akhenaten was alive would he let Smenkhkara be named?
2) It says the child is born of the King's daughter... it is assumed to be
Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten. It could be Princess Beketaten,
a King's daughter and of childbirthing age was well. We do know that,
Beketaten visited late in the reign. Did she perhaps marry her
brother? Just who would have been a suitable husband for the
daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiy? She just disappears after that
visit was it into her brother's harem?
3) Now naming these daughters after living ones despite the experts who
want to see this as proof of their being born of, by the same named
women. It isn't proof.
a. Meketaten may very well be the mother of one of them. Naming her
child after her closet sister.
b. Let us assume that Meketaten wasn't the mother of one of them.
Akhenaten had a harem...not long after the death of Meketaten,
Nefertiti, Queen Tiy, and Kiya disappear. Suddenly, the number one
women in court are Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten. Bekeataten, or
an even lower women of the harem might have named the children
after the new primary women of the court.
4) Smenkhkara was apparently an adult when he became co-regent.
Egyptians married young. While Akhenaten married daughter after
daughter, having more daughters Smenkhkara just waited with lower
ranked women?
5) If the younger Meketaten was capable of having a child, why wasn't her
older sister?
6) The marrying of one's daughter while not abnormal in Egyptian royal
history/culture happened rarely. However, the marrying of a daughter
then passing her on to your successor is, and is not recorded anywhere
in Egyptian history. Which is the favored theory of archaeologists where
it would send grave warning signals to anthropologists
7) The reference to Meritaten as "Mistress of your (Akhenaten) house."
First one should ask is there ANY OTHER EXPLANATION POSSIBLE FOR
THIS WORDING? The answer surprisingly is... YES! An adult daughter,
and Meritaten was an adult daughter, whose father is grieving as
Akhenaten surely must have lossing his mother, wife, daughter, and
Kiya all within a short period of time, often takes over her father's house
and runs it for him.

Personally i tend to view the younger Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten as the daughters of Akhenaten and Bekeataten, and/or of Smenkhkara and Meritaten. For all the above reasons. Smile
I hope this is a help Ankhesenamun3 Smile
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You Sekhmet that help me alot Very Happy . I have never really thought about Akhenatens sister Bekeataten being the mother of the two princess , but it would make since. But , I do not understand how one could be Mekeaten's daughter because I thought she died having a child so how would it be named. But it would make since in a way since they say them child is never mentioned maybe because it was a boy and took up a common name or more likly it died.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to be a help. Cool

Okay Ankhesenamun, what makes you believe that Meketaten's child died? The relief you are referring to shows a child being carried outside of Meketaten's death chamber where her parents along with others, are mourning her. The child has a sunshade over it as if it was alive a dead child would not need a sunshade. And if it died with Meketaten, would it have even been credited with life? As this child most certainly is.

Personally, i don't take it at all that the child is her's. Just a another sister/or brother to young really to be taken into the death chamber but near the mourning of the family anyway. Of course this answer is never considered, but perhaps it should.
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