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Who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus?
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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, tutness, someone stated that ol' Akhenaten founded Heliopolis? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Goodness, I had no idea that Akhenaten was almost 2000 years old even by the Amarna Period. Now that's longevity!

I'm also a fan of Heliopolis. It was almost certainly founded on temple grounds that are at least predynastic. Too bad the modern suburbs of Cairo cover it up. Crying or Very sad
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the_tutness_is_here
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also found it halarious, as I'm sure you've read, kmt_sesh!! Laughing If Akhenaten could live that long, we'd have solved his mystery long ago on the Amarna period and then some, because if he took the time to found 2 cities in that timeframe, then he'd certainly have time to grab a papyrus and write an autobiography!! Laughing Laughing Wink

And yes, sadly, Heliopolis is covered up by Cairo and it's polluted suburbs. Sad And although there are some artifacts from Heliopolis that are in the Cairo museum, it's not the same as seeing the actual city itself. Crying or Very sad Life can be soooo cruel, sometimes!!

But my number one favorite city is Akhetaten, of course, because I'm a fan of the Amarna period!! Very Happy Wink

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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But my number one favorite city is Akhetaten, of course, because I'm a fan of the Amarna period!!


Certainly nothing unusual about that. It's one of the most fascinating times of the entire dynastic period, almost like something out of a good Hollywood script.

And it's funny that so many people of the modern world are so intrigued by the Amarna Period...a period that many powerful people of that time tried very hard to erase from history. The mummies of Horemheb, Seti I, numerous Ramessides, and a whole bunch of Amarna priests must be spinning in their sarcophagi! Surprised
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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and a whole bunch of Amarna priests must be spinning in their sarcophagi!


I'm sorry, I meant to say Amun priests. Man, I totally ruined my own joke...I hate it when I do that! Mad
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the_tutness_is_here
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, kmt_sesh, you made it even FUNNIER by saying that!! Laughing Laughing Wink I heard they were making a movie called "King Tut", which is actually ALL about Akhenaten's life... Shocked If I find the site that said that, I'll be glad to give it to you!! ^_^ It's a good laugh.

And really--who knew that one of the most famous pharaohs in history was the most hated pharaoh back then. I feel bad for his son, Tut, who ascended the throne after him--he had to run a bitter, Anti-Amarna Egypt.

And, before the CT scans were done on him, they believed he was murdered because of fear that he might have done the same "rash mistakes" that Akhenaten made. Though, he re-introduced the old gods, and they say he was a "Wise, fair judge of the people". I'm quoting this from a library book that I read back in the days of my middle school romping, and I hope I can remember the name of the book soon. ^_^ It was long ago, and I'm graduating high school next week, which shows you how old I am...*Cough!* 18! *Cough!* Laughing Wink Yes..I feel so young, yet so old... Shocked .... Laughing Hehe..

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rich
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bel, That's a very interesting Amenhotep II theory. Kind of a condescending author who makes a lot of assumptions... but a very interesting theory.
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rich
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

18th dynasty pharoahs:
Ahmose: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ahmose1.htm
Amenhotep 1: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amenhotep1.htm
Tutmosis 1: http://touregypt.net/featurestories/tuthmosis1.htm
Tutmosis 2: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/tuthmosis2.htm
"We are told that he had to crush a revolt in Nubia in his first year and that this bought about the demise of the kingdom of Kush at Kerma. Apparently, to punish the Kushites for their rebelion, he had everyone put to death with the exception of a royal son, who was bought back to Egypt as a hostage.
Hatshepsut: http://www.touregypt.net/18dyn05.htm
Tutmosis 3: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/tuthmosis3.htm
Amenhotep 2: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amenhotep2.htm
Tutmosis 4: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/tuthmosis4.htm
Amenhotep 3: http://touregypt.net/featurestories/amenhotep3.htm
Amenhotep 4/Akhenaton: http://www.touregypt.net/18dyn10.htm
King Tut: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/tut.htm

http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn18a.htm
"A man named Amenhotpe who had the rank of 'First King's Son of 'Akheperkare' (this the Prenomen of Tuthmosis I) was not a real son, because both his parents are named"
http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn18b.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn18c.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn18d.htm
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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_tutness_is_here wrote:
Quote:
Though, he re-introduced the old gods, and they say he was a "Wise, fair judge of the people". I'm quoting this from a library book that I read back in the days of my middle school romping


I don't know how much faith to put in that book, but it does paint a rosy picture. Remember that Tut was a prepubescent boy when he assumed the throne and became Lord of the Two Lands; he was indeed pharaoh but likely exercised little to no power of his own. Men like Ay and Horemheb ruled Egypt in his stead. Tut was a puppet king--much like Tuthmosis III under Hatshepsut, but at least Tuthmosis lived long enough to become one of Egypt's greatest warrior pharaohs once his aunt died.

I doubt Tut had much say in what took place in his own kingdom in the early years of his reign. I personally feel Horemheb in particular wanted nothing more than to erase all memory of Akhenaten and Atenism, and regents such as he were most likely responsible for the return of the old ways; the boy king was just along for the ride.

I used to be a proponent of the theory that Tut was assassinated, based on who his parents likely were and what they had done to Egypt, and on the ambitions of his powerful regents. After all, Tut died when he was finally coming into his own and of an age when he could rule independently of his regents. It always struck me as a bit too convenient. But the recent CT scans of Tut's body have more or less put the assassination theory to rest, and that's okay.

If all our questions were answered, ancient Egypt wouldn't be so fascinating. Wink

Congrats on your graduation, by the way. Very Happy How does it feel to be 18? Ahhhh, youth.
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the_tutness_is_here
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, kmt!! Laughing Very Happy It feels great to finally be a legalized adult!! Woohoo!! Wink

I was also one of those who believed that Tut was assassinated, until the CT scans, and if Tut was famous for "being killed", then I wonder if his fame will dwindle with the public? I doubt it, but hopefully people can stop making his life a big "Murder Mystery" fiasco, because it got old after a while.

Anyway, I also still agree that Tut was indeed a puppet, and too young to actually seize power from himself. It is interesting to note that as he got older, he wanted to run things HIS way. When the theory of Tut's murder was still on people's minds, one was that as he wanted to break free of Ay's and Horemheb's control, they figured he would dismiss them, and in fear and greed, they done the boy-pharaoh in.

But, thanks to Dr. Hawass and the CT scans, it can be settled that Tut was not murdered. Though I DO wonder...if Tut died from illness...why did Horemheb erase any trace of him, Akhenaten and even Ay? Even Tut's name, as well as Akhenaten's, was omitted from the king's list. It's got me scratching at my brain.. Confused

By the way, kmt, my graduation is on the 26th of this month--next week, of course--and I have this crazy idea that I might throw a grad party on here in the coffee lounge afterwards!! Laughing Very Happy ^_^;

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Osiris II
Pharaoh


Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 914
Location: Long Beach, CA

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tutness, the scan does not prove that Tutankhamen wasn't murdered. The only thing it proves is that he did not died from a blow to the back of the head. Hawass himself has stated that he firmly believes there was some sort of consipracy, but we will probably never know who planned it, who carried it out, or how it was done.
In so far as the break is concerned, opinion amongst those who examined the mummy-scan was almost divided 50-50. There were those who believed it was an old break that had occured before death--suggesting some sort of accident, planned or not--and those who believed it to be caused by Carter's efforts to get the mummy out of its coffin.
If it was a break that had happened when he was alive it must have been serious enough to break the skin, cause an infection which killed him--just a simple break would not be fatal.
I don't know if toxicological examination can be done--they need tissue from the liver, and that was dried out and mummified. But it is stongly indicated that he was poisoned in some way--perhaps using the excuse of giving him "medicine" for an injury.
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Osiris, for clearing that up for me! ^_^; You reminded me of Carter's excavation, and how they had to take the mummy apart and put it back together. Which is sad--if they had modern-day technology, they wouldn't have to take Tut apart like a puzzle and then re-assemble him, and maybe Tut's mummy would've been better preserved.

Though, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that Tut's mummy was damp when they found it, and his skin--as we all know--was a dark color when they unwrapped him. So, even during the embalming process, Tut's mummy was ultimately doomed to the state that it has always been. I wish he were better preserved, like Seti I's mummy, or Ramesses II and so forth. (Though those came at later dynasties, but still, they have mummies that were better preserved from earlier dynasties as well. ). Very Happy And thanks again, for pointing some things out for me, Osiris.

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rich
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manetho List of 18th Dynasty Pharoahs:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/dyn18_19.html
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/dyn18.html
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rich
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dynasty 12 Theory: (1991-1786BC)
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/Tracing_the_hand_of_moses_in_genesis.html
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rich
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seti II theory (~1200BC):
http://www.argyrosargyrou.fsnet.co.uk/myths/bible/Chronology.htm
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tutness, I doubt you'll ever have to worry about Tut's fame dwindling. Though he was a minor ruler in his own time, Tut has become a phenomenon, not a fad. People are fascinated by him to this day. Funny how a few hundred books will do that for a person who died over 3000 years ago.

In the tours I give at our museum I'll often ask my groups, "And who's the most famous king of ancient Egypt?" In unison, from the 5-year-olds to the 70-year-olds, they call out, "King Tut!"

I think the boy king is still doing all right for himself.

Incidentally, Tut's body was so dark because of the copious amounts of resins used in his preservation. That's why they ended up sawing him into a dozen pieces to get him out of his coffin--the resin had dried and stuck him fast inside it.

The examiners of the CT scans Osiris II was telling you about went on record, I believe, as saying he recieved a good mummification. That is clearly not the case. He was well wrapped and sealed inside his coffins and sarcophagus, but the body itself was poorly prepared. His head is in good shape, but the farther down his body you go, the more skeletal he is. We have commoners in our exhibit whose mummies are much better preserved than the boy king's.
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