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What do you believe happened to Ankhsenamon?
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Lady Neferankh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:48 pm    Post subject: What do you believe happened to Ankhsenamon? Reply with quote

I have alway theorized that she was murdered.She was at any rate probably not alive by the time Horemheb assumed the throne if she had been do you think she would have allowed him to do things like appropiate her husbands monuments or obliterate all trace of her father.I have always supported the murder theory.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: What do you believe happened to Ankhsenamon? Reply with quote

Lady Neferankh wrote:
I have alway theorized that she was murdered.She was at any rate probably not alive by the time Horemheb assumed the throne if she had been do you think she would have allowed him to do things like appropiate her husbands monuments or obliterate all trace of her father.I have always supported the murder theory.


Hi Lady Neferankh, welcome again!
My own beliefs regarding Ankhesenamun again goes against accepted theories of her. It is my belief that she married Ramesses I, and it is this marriage that allows Ramesses I to achieve the throne. Not because he had a son, and grandson and that pleased Horemheb. i note that Ramesses I wife's name is Satre which translates into the daughter of the Sun God. Considering that Ankhesenamun as the daughter of one Pharaoh, the wife of another, granddaughter of Amenohotep III she would fit that description better than anyother women. i believe that Seti was her son, and Ramesses II was her grandson.

As for Horemheb's destruction of the Amarna history that is now becoming another of the many Amarna theories that are hitting the discarded floor. Yes, he did tear down the one temple of Aten at Karnak, but it was in the way of his own planned work. But it wasn't unsual for new kings to remove prior kings work that stood in the way of the newer king. The White Chapel of Amenhotep I is one example i can think of.

Today more scholars Lady Neferankh are accepting that it was Ramesses I, Seti I, and Ramesses II that began the true crimialization of Akhenaten. Here again, i see more the hand of a woman bent on destroying everything that might remind her of a past life filled with pain and memories than a man's destruction of a dead rivial.

Then there is the fact that it appears that neither Ay, nor Horemheb had a true Queen. Tiye, and Mutnodjmet the common born wives of Ay, and Horemheb didn't share in the royal tombs of their husbands signifing that they were dead prior to those tombs being prepared. While both women are called Queens by their husbands, it apparently was most likely that they became queens after death. Which leds me to ask in a country that required duality in almost everything why not with these Kings without Queens. My answer is because Ankhesenamun didn't drop dead as so many scholars like to think she did but continued.

In final consieration if my theory is right, we have Ramesses I marrying Ankhesenamun between year 1 and year 4 of Ay. Which would give us a Seti of the correct age to assume the throne as he did.
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Tadukhipa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooh! I like your theory Sekhmet!

I didn't vote because I really have no idea. For some reason the murder thing appeals to me, but I think that's just the Discovery channel talking there.

In my own (poorly written) Amarna novel, I think I have her marrying Aye, sinking into depression and her health just sort of fades away into death. Of course, that has nothing to do with actual historical evidence.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Sekhmet , you put forth a wonderful theory. But , what happened to Ankhesenamun , why if she did live after Aye had been pharoah , was she never metioned again? I am not sure if I believe she was murdered , I really do not know. But, murder would make sense in the case that Tutankhamun her first husband was murdered , but also this too is just another guess. It also brings up the question of where Ankhesenamun was buried. If she had been married to so many pharoahs as you suggest , it seems as she would have received a most royal burial. But yet a tomb has never been found.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tadukhipa wrote:
Oooh! I like your theory Sekhmet!

I didn't vote because I really have no idea. For some reason the murder thing appeals to me, but I think that's just the Discovery channel talking there.

In my own (poorly written) Amarna novel, I think I have her marrying Aye, sinking into depression and her health just sort of fades away into death. Of course, that has nothing to do with actual historical evidence.


Thanks Tadukhipa Smile i just got tired of constantly reading that because she disappears after the reign of Ay begins... she must have died either by murder or of depression lost in a harem of an ancient old man. Right! The granddaughter of Queen Tiy? Then i discovered the name of Ramesses I wife Satre, meaning the daughter of the Sun God. It just all fell in place for me. Then i realized what must have happened and the myth of Isis and Horus hiding in the delta helped me to see.

In this myth Osiris is dead, and chaos is attempting to destroy his son Horus so Isis takes the child and hides in the delta until he is of age to assume the throne of his dead father.

When Tutankhamun died chaos certainly was reigning in Egypt. It is this lack of Maat, not her servants that Ankhesenamun is referring to in her note to the King of Hittite, "i am afraid". (If this phase is really there, the earlier the date you read of this letter the less you read that phase). When the Hittite Prince died, her choices of husband force her to accept a servant. Ay? Horemheb? Or a man closer to her own age that most likely had been serving away from court as a warrior? Ramesses I did come from a military and somewhat noble delta family. In his later age he certainly proved he had warrior ability. So i see him, arriving at Ankhesenamun's court full of himself as successful military warriors tend to be, certainly not an expericenced courtly servant, then sweeping her off her royal feet. Then as she, and her advisers consider the real threat of Chaos upon Eygpt. She disappears as Isis did, to have her children in safety hiden by her court. While Ay, then Horemheb, and Ramesses I take the blunt of the threats of chaos so the "true Horus" Seti can safely grow to manhood. Which is actually what did happen.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Very Happy Sekhmet , you put forth a wonderful theory. But , what happened to Ankhesenamun , why if she did live after Aye had been pharoah , was she never metioned again? I am not sure if I believe she was murdered , I really do not know. But, murder would make sense in the case that Tutankhamun her first husband was murdered , but also this too is just another guess. It also brings up the question of where Ankhesenamun was buried. If she had been married to so many pharoahs as you suggest , it seems as she would have received a most royal burial. But yet a tomb has never been found.


Thanks Ankhesenamun3 Smile i was writing my reply to Tadukhipa, when you posted your comments. i have already addressed some of your concerns. Let me address the others.

i don't suggest that she married anyone other than Tutankhamun and then Ramesses I. While she hid with her children as Isis, i believe like Isis she let her agents rule in the hopes that they would foil and hopefully make safe Egypt once again. Which by the way they did.

Tutankhamun is the only 18th Dynasty Pharaoh to have been found in his tomb. The others were found in various stashes. What many folks don't realize or know is that in these stashes there is one royal middle aged female from the late 18th/early 19th Dynasty which was found in the stash with the remains Ramesses I, and II and Seti and granted other dynastic Kings. Another 18th dynasty royal female remain's were found in the tomb of Queen Hatshepsut's nursemaid. Most believe that female to be the remains of Hatshepsut herself. i don't one it is the remains of a middle aged Queen, Hatshepsut died a Pharaoh. i believe they are the remains of Queen Tiy. While the one at the big stash i believe are Ankhesenamun.

Why do i feel that Queen Tiy's remains are those in the Hatshepsut nursemaid tomb? Because she died in Akhetaten was buried wrapped in Atenist funerary goods. When she was originally found all the priests could have known was this was an Egyptian Queen but not one of Amun's. i can see the confusion of the priests as they tried to decide what to do with her remains. i can see them opting to place her in a tomb by herself on account of her Atentist funerary goods.

PS i don't believe Tutankhamun was murdered. i do believe he died in a war related incident.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tadukhipa wrote:

In my own (poorly written) Amarna novel, I think I have her marrying Aye, sinking into depression and her health just sort of fades away into death.


And never put your own work down. There are plenty enough folks outside your family and supporters here in KingTutOne that will happily do that for you!
What you write here, is pretty darn good so i bet your novel is pretty good too!
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Sekhmet , The only thing that is confusing me is that there was a ring found that had the names of Ankhesenamun and Aye on them , most say that this shows that Ankhesenamun married Aye.
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have come to realise that it is pointless arguing against Sekhmet as she knows everything about the Amarna period. I mean that in a complimentary way of course, not meaning it to be a dig at all. I do however believe that Ankhesenamun either died of natural causes or man made ones during the reign of either Ay or Horemheb. Again this is founded almost solely on Bob Brier, I need to read around a bit more on this one.
Sekhmet, what you say about the marriage is very interesting indeed, I dont know though. There is just something about it for me that doesn't ring true. I know this is hardly scientific but I just dont feel that it is right. It is a very interesting theory though, just one I don't really believe in. Is there any more evidence for the re-marriage of Ankhesenamun. I was always under the impression that she had married Ay and then, like her mother simply disappeared. I must admit that the evidence that backs up the marriage of Ankhesenamun and Ay is highly sceptical. The actual ring proclaiming it is, in my memory lost somewhere and thus cannot be studied in more depth. On the other hand the marriage would have been unusual, even for Ancient Egyptian standards. Ankhesenamun had married her father first, then both her (half) brothers, then finally the man who could have been her maternal grandfather. These marriages just seem a little excessive to be believeable. There is the interesting evidence of the Hittite prince, proving that Ankhesenamun (who is generally accepted as being the Queen in the letters) was afraid of marrying a servant, perhaps indicating Ay or even Ramses I. The evidence for the marriage is growing in my mind now actually. lol. There is also no depiction of Ankhesenamun as a wife or Queen in the tomb of Ay, instead his second wife Tey is depicted behind him as Great Royal Wife. Well Sekhmet I must say that as I am writing this post my views have u turned. You have converted me!
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Si-Amun , About the ring being missing the one that Egyptologist )Percy Newberry found is indeed missing , but another ring very similar to the Newberry one was found. And the ring shows that Aye and Ankhesenamun were married. And as to Ankhesenamun not being shown in Aye's tomb , well this sounds like more evidence that maybe Ankhesenamun was murdered as suggested in the book The Murder of King Tutankhamun. Maybe Aye who is one of the suspects in the Murder of King Tut (if he was truly murdered) , maybe Aye killed Tut and then married Ankhesenamun just to get to the throne and then after he got there just killed her , and remained with Tey his first wife.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Si-Amun wrote:
I have come to realise that it is pointless arguing against Sekhmet as she knows everything about the Amarna period. I mean that in a complimentary way of course, not meaning it to be a dig at all.
Snipped by Sekhmet Smile
The evidence for the marriage is growing in my mind now actually. lol. There is also no depiction of Ankhesenamun as a wife or Queen in the tomb of Ay, instead his second wife Tey is depicted behind him as Great Royal Wife. Well Sekhmet I must say that as I am writing this post my views have u turned. You have converted me!


Thanks Si-Amun for the compliment.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Okay Si-Amun , About the ring being missing the one that Egyptologist )Percy Newberry found is indeed missing , but another ring very similar to the Newberry one was found. And the ring shows that Aye and Ankhesenamun were married. And as to Ankhesenamun not being shown in Aye's tomb , well this sounds like more evidence that maybe Ankhesenamun was murdered as suggested in the book The Murder of King Tutankhamun. Maybe Aye who is one of the suspects in the Murder of King Tut (if he was truly murdered) , maybe Aye killed Tut and then married Ankhesenamun just to get to the throne and then after he got there just killed her , and remained with Tey his first wife.


Hi Ankhesenamun3!

It really doesn't matter how many rings with the name of Ay, and Ankhesenamun exists. They do not mean marriage. The combined names of Hatshepsut and Tuthmoses III do not mean marriage only a recongized co-regencey. Why does the combined names of Ay, and Ankhesenamun mean marriage?

Again i prefer to use my cutlural anthropology skills when it comes to the Amarna Age. Because Egyptianologists have consistantly shown that when it comes to this period they prefer flights of fancy to "cultural norms". The only evidence of Ankhesenamun having married anyone is Tutankhamun. It is Egyptianologists claiming she was married almost as much as our Elizabeth Taylor! And there is no such proof period, of any marriage except to Tutankhamun.

It is my own theory based only upon knowledge of Ancient Egypt, and cultural norms (cultural anthropology). That leads me to believe that Ankhesenamun is actually Satre wife and Queen of Ramesses I. This theory allows for the succession, and peace within Egypt that existed during the reigns of Ay, Horemheb, and Ramesses I. Combined with the story of Isis and Horus, to me it only seals what i suspected when i first discovered the meaning of the name Satre, daughter of the Sun God.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay , there were at least two different rings. So if they are not rings that show the two got married why were they made?
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Okay , there were at least two different rings. So if they are not rings that show the two got married why were they made?


As evidence that Ay ruled with the co-operation and approval of the Queen. A proof of co-regencey.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay........ Very Happy Yes that would make sense. So maybe the rings did showed approval from the Queen. But has a ring like that ever been shown or found that has shown co-regencey?
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