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Rameses II
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merytre-Hatshepsut wrote:
According to Dodson (and others) this elder brother of Ramesses II never existed. He was based on a mis-interpretation of the inscriptional evidence.

I do see what you're saying, but from what I've read, the main reason that Horemheb picked Ramses I to follow him on the throne, (other than him being a military man, which seemed to be highly regarded in the New Kingdom) was that he had a son and grandsons. I was also made to believe that Ramses II wasn't originally intended to be king. The theory that I've heard, as to why Seti's elder son isn't mentioned very often, is that once Ramses II took the throne he would've altered his brother's name to his own, to make it seem that he was intended to be Pharaoh all along.
In all honesty, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me that Seti I and Tuya would've only had two or three children. I'm not saying that you're wrong, though, just that I'm not entirely convinced either way. Very Happy
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Kiya
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prince Ramses is shown with Seti in the Hall of Ancestors at Seti's Abydos temple. Building works were usually started early in the reign of a pharaoh as they never knew how long there reign would be. If Seti did have an older son he must have died before Seti became king otherwise it would have been him with Seti instead of Ramses surely?
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Neb-en-khaset-neb did exsist, he was meant to have died in infancy, so he obvously wouldn't have been thought of as a future king for very long. If Ramses II's elder brother died in infancy it couldn't mean that Ramses himself was more than a year or two old when his brother died. As far as Ramses was concerned he probably always thought of himself as the future king, he would'nt have known any different. Wink
It's only speculative, though. Smile
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiya wrote:
If Seti did have an older son he must have died before Seti became king otherwise it would have been him with Seti instead of Ramses surely?

Not really, the elder brother was proposed to have died in the first year or so of Seti's reign, so any building projects that were started wouldn't have been completed. Any small items belonging to Neb-en-khaset-neb would've been re-used by Ramses, therefore there wouldn't really be much proof of his exsistence even in anient times.
I don't believe 'lack of proof' necessarily means something never exsisted.
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JOY!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my thing is, how much older was Tia then Rameses? I assume that there would have been a big age gap? at least 5 years difference between the two.

What of Henutmire? I've heard she's either the daughter of Tuya (Rameses mother), Nefertari, or Merytamun?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is taken from another foum I belong to, The Ancient Near Eastern Cronology Forum. You might find the information in it interesting in your discussion of Henutmire:
But Henutmire never appears as King's Sister in the very context where that characterization would be most likely. Her death more than a decade after Ramesses II, and the fact that Ramesses II's one clearly attested sister Tia was already married to a commoner before her brother's accession (and probably before the family came to the throne) all militate against seeing Henutmire as a sister of the king. So Henutmire is probably a daughter-wife of Ramesses II. Since she does not appear in the lists of princesses (unless perhaps one of the several broken Henut-... names), Leblanc suggests that she was born a little later in the reign, and she may have been a daughter of Ramesses II by one of his daughter-wives, e.g., Merytamun.
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JOY! wrote:
Well, my thing is, how much older was Tia then Rameses? I assume that there would have been a big age gap? at least 5 years difference between the two.

Probably a fair bit more than 5 years if Tia was meant to have been married before Ramses I was on the throne.

Osiris II, the only problem that I see with that theory is, why then would Henutmira have been depicted with Queen Tuya. Confused If Henutmira had been born too late in Ramses II's reign than Tuya might not of even still been alive when Henutmira was born. So why the statue of them together?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my belief that the theory states that Henutmira usurped the image on the statue, having her name carved in place of the name of one of Tuya's daughters.
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't Tuya's only other daughter Tia? So that would mean that the statue was orginally meant to depict Tuya with Tia, unless the whole statue was usurped, in which case it could've been anyone! I personally think that if it wasn't originally Tuya with Henutmira, than it probably wasn't any of the Ramses' family, but a previous family. Possibly from the Tuthmoside. Confused
The thing that makes me think that the theory you've posted makes a lot of sense, Osiris II, is that Henutmira would've had to have lived to be very old if she was believed to have outlived Ramses II. Shocked (I wasn't aware of that). Where did the idea that Henutmira lived for more than a decade after Ramses come from. Question
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I first heard of that theory when I was reading "Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt" by Aiden Dodson and Dyan Hilton. They referred to works published by Noblecourt-DeLaroush (s?)
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
"Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt" by Aiden Dodson and Dyan Hilton.

Thanks, Osiris II, I'll have to see if I can check that book out sometime. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've often wondered why Tia isn't depicted in anything with Rameses during his reign (perhaps she was and I just haven't seen them). I mean she was his only sister. Although since it appears that they had a big age gap, I would still think to see one of them? she could have easily been depicted at Abu Simbel. I have often wondered if Seti married any other women when became pharaoh? could he have had other children by lesser wives even though we don't know of any?
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Horus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there , i found this interesting debate, and i would like to join.
Well .... most of it, was interesting i did not read all, because i have disgusting monitor . Shocked
It seems to me, pretty clear that Rameses has a king ancestors, for any more information everyone can check Tanis stele.
About the Big brother of Rameses II i would say that there is no such a thing.
In a few words ...
This is an idea of D.Breadsted , on the north wall of big hypostyle hall in Karnak there is an inscriptions about Seti I military activity.There D.Breadsted sow, what he ment to be, a first and primary son of Seti I which is not Usermaatre. This theory was under question by Ed.Meier who sad that inscription of personage that accompany Seti I , is so bad preserved , that there will be need a lot of imagination to develop such an interesting theory about the primary brother.However , after more epigraph research, it was found that this is Head of marksmens named Mehi.

After all i also have an interesting question to ask.
What do you think, is was Rameses a hyksos ?
There is an interesting clues, that may support such an idea. I woud like to know what is your's opinion here.

Best regards!
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the clues that suggest Rameses II might have been an Hyksos?
As far as I know, his geneology is quite well documented. His father (Seti) was a Pharaoh; his grandfather (Rameses I) was a Pharaoh, originally a soldier chosen by Horemheb to be his heir.
Admittedly, the family MAY has had some Canaanite blood, but such a happening wasn't that unusual. After all Egypt was a melting-pot, and all sorts of racial types could be found.
But his family, as far as I can see, was typically Egyptian.
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Horus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well , his family is unknown before Rameses I.
About these clues, you know he was a tall men , also that red hair ...
Hyksos are a bit mysterious for me, and i am not an anthropologist so i can not say that, this(that i mention about his growth, and hair colors) is a clue linking whit Hyksos, but such a specialist i believe would be able to make some other compares whit any Hyksos remains, after all these are still clues assuming some foreign blood.Also he make Avaris once more a capital(Pi-Ramses).And Tannis stele speak for anniversary of some Set era , when that era start ? Can it's start, be connected whit 15-th dynasty, it is known that the Hyksos had worshiped Set ?

I am sorry if my English had some mistakes , it is not the best and i hope i am understandable.
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