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Bintanath
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Kiya
Prince/Princess


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 442
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefertari's children do not seem to have been as hardy as Iset's. I remember watching a film once, can't remember which one, which said that 'Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence'. Meaning just because we can't find evidence for marriages between Ramses' siblings doesn't mean it didn't happen. It makes sense for it to have happened but the evidence has been lost.
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always wondered if some of the key players from the end of the dynasty included grand-children of Ramses.
I only know of 2 or 3 known grand-sons: there's Hori, son of Khaemwaset, who became Vizier. Seti-Merneptah, Son of Merneptah who may be the same as Seti II.

My thought was that if Ramses' grand-children survived into adulthood, then they may have found their way into government positions.

Amenmesse, who usurped the throne, and may be identical to Messuy, the Viceroy of Nubia is another candidate.

I think there's another Viceroy of Nubia during the reign of Siptah named Sety.

Bay, the advisor to Tawosret, had a full name which incorporated the name Ramses.

Sethnakht who started the 20th dynasty could easily be a grand-son.

This is all speculative of course. Very Happy
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Kiya
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of his Grandchildren was supposed to be Tashat. Didn't she marry Merneptah's successor?
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JOY!
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She could have. I don't know why but I guess I always assumed Merenptah just married Isetnofret III though of course he could have had other wives.
I recently was doing some looking up on some sons of Rameses II there was Meryre I son 11 of Nefertari, and then there is a Meryre II son number 18, is it possible this could have been a father and son? I'm not aware of too many people naming a son the same name as one who is older?
and there's something I've noticed with some of the son's names like Prehirwenemef, Amenhirwenemef, both sons of Nefertari, So I'm wondering if Mentuhirkopshef, Horhirwenemef,Astartehirwenemef could possibly be more sons of Nefertari and Rameses(later sons may be grand sons), just because of the similarities in the name(not much to go on but work with me here)

ok and we have Ramesses-meryamun, Rameses II 16th son by Nefertari named Meryatum, so could this be his son? or maybe Merymentu could be his son? (again because of the similarities in the name)
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JOY!
Scribe


Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(sorry for double posting here)

but, I was also looking at the list of Daughters of Rameses II. We know that Henuttawy, Nefertari II, and Meryetamun were all daughters of Nefertari. Then we have some names that are similar to these names, I would assume any name having Nefer would be some way related to Nefertari.

For instance these names have either Nefer in them or are similar to Meryetamun's name:

Meryetkhet
Neferure
Meryetnetjer
Renpetnefer
Meryetnetjer

I know some people except some of these Princess' to be daughters of Nefertari as well:

Beketmut
Nebettawy

as I wrote before, I'm really going based on the similarities in there names.
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tnrees
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Joined: 09 Jul 2005
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Location: Taunton, UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

re: 2 sons with the same name - I have heard of children being given the same name as a dead child - how old was the first Meryre?
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JOY!
Scribe


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have always wondered if some of the key players from the end of the dynasty included grand-children of Ramses.


This might explain the mysterious Amenmesse , and how he got the throne. I can defintly see some fighting going amongst these, descendants of Rameses II.
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Kiya
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originlly posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
I always thought it funny that Prince #23. Simentu married Iryet, the daughter of Benanath, A Syrian ship’s captain. So at least one dated outside the royal palace


It was acceptable for a king, or in this case a prince, to marry a commoner but a royal princess did not marry below herself. Look at Queen Tiy, noble but not royal.
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiya wrote:
It was acceptable for a king, or in this case a prince, to marry a commoner but a royal princess did not marry below herself. Look at Queen Tiy, noble but not royal.


The only exception in the New Kingdom seems to bee Princess Tia, who married the treasurer Tia.

(In the second intermediate period there are some examples of Princesses who marry commoners. But that's much later.)
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Kiya
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
The only exception in the New Kingdom seems to bee Princess Tia, who married the treasurer Tia.


Yes but Tia appears to have married Tia before her families royal destiny became apparent. We know that the main reason Horemheb chose Ramses I for his successor was undoubtably his proven ability to father sons. Seti and Ramses II were already living. If Tia married before her grandfather became pharaoh then technically she was not a princess and a marriage to the treasurer would have been quite within her social circle.

Quote:

(In the second intermediate period there are some examples of Princesses who marry commoners. But that's much later.)


Have found some examples from the 3rd Intermediate. One princess married Hadad, Crown Prince of Edom and of course we know of Soloman's marriage to an Egyptian Princess. What 2nd Intermediate examples are there?Smile
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiya wrote:
If Tia married before her grandfather became pharaoh then technically she was not a princess and a marriage to the treasurer would have been quite within her social circle.

Very true. I think this is the prevailing theory at this time. Certainly makes sense to me.
It's really interesting I think that her husband plays the prominent role in the tomb. Princess Tia is not depicted anywhere near as often as her husband. You would think that being the King's sister would get you some more "press time" Very Happy


Kiya wrote:
What 2nd Intermediate examples are there?Smile


Oops! I meant 3rd intermediate period. (But I think you realized that)
According to Kitchen :

Dynasty 21:
1. Unnamed, probably daughter of Siamun to Solomon.
2. Tentsepeh B, probably daughter of Psusennes II to HP of Ptah Shedsunefertem A
3. Maatkare B, daughter of Psusennes II to Osorkon (I)

Dynasty 22
4. Tashepenbast, daughter of Shoshenq I, to sPA Djed-Thut-ef-ankh.
5. Istweret A, daughter of Harsiese to 2PA, 4PA Harsiese C
6. Tjesbastperu, daughter of Osorkon II to HP Ptah Takeloth
7. Shepensopdet, daughter of Takeloth II, to 4PA Djed-Khons-ef-ankh C
8. Istweret B, daughter ofTakeloth II, to Vizier Nakhtefmut C
9. Tentsepeh D, daughter of Takeloth II to Ptah-udj-ankhef
10. Ankhes-en-Seshonq, daughter of Shoshenq III to a man named Iuf-o

Dynasty 23
11. Ir-bast-udja-tjau, daughter of Takeloth III to Vizier Pakhuru
12. Di-Ese-nesyt, daughter of Takeloth III to Vizier Nespaqeshuty B
13. Ankh-Karoma, daughter of Takeloth III to 3PA Pediamennednesttawy
14. Tentsai, daughter of Takeloth III to official Nakhtefmut
15. Ir-BAst-udja-nefu, daughter of Rudamun, to Pef-tjau-awy-bast (who became a local King at Heracleopolis)

From K.A. Kitchen The Third Intermediate Period in Egypt (1996 edition)

I don't know about the 2nd intermediate period. That's Hyksos period and some of the local Theban Kings. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Princesses married commoners then.

Hmmm Getting pretty far away from Bint-Anath.

I was looking through the inscription that mention her. She is actaully fairly well attested as a Queen. She's second only to Queen Nefertari.

I find the stelas from Silsila and Aswan rather interesting. There she is depicted with her closest family members: King Ramesses II, Queen Isetnofret and the Princes Ramesses, Khaemwaset and Merenptah.
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Psusennes I
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your detailed knowledge of even the most obscure parts of Egyptology never ceases to amaze me. Well done Merytre-Hatshepsut!
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tnrees
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 more thoughts on explanations for 2 sons with the same name-
a) Someone told Ramesses he could not have 2 sons with the same name

b) If the Egyptians wrote vowels the names could be different
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently put up a page on my website with the known inscriptions dealing wirh Princess-Queen Bint-Anath.
Link to BintAnath page

The paintings on the page are done by me and are based on linedrawings made by Lepsius.

The photograph is made by someone I know in Egypt.

My Ramesses II page click here has a list of Queens, Princes and Princesses.
I based these lists on the work by K.A. Kitchen.

The paintings on that page are done by me, the photos mostly come from egyptarchive.

I have never seen the actual glyphs for Meryre I and II, but the name is rather simple. I suspect they are written the same way.

Very Happy Given the lists of 50 known sons and 53 known daughters it's a surprise not more duplication occurs.
Must have been a chore after a while to come up with a new name Laughing
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Kiya
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
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Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originaly posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
You would think that being the King's sister would get you some more "press time"


I read somewhere that it wasn't seemly to bost of a connction to the pharaoh through a woman and that both Ay and Anen, brothers of Tiy, do not mention it at all in their tombs.

Originally posted by Merytre-Hatshepsut

Quote:
Oops! I meant 3rd intermediate period. (But I think you realized that)


No actually I didn't I thought there might be some second intermediate exampls I didn't know about:-) Having said that, several of the exmples you give appear to be prinesses marrying High Priests of Amun and the 21st/22nd dynasty of High Priests were pharaohs in all but name. But certainly the princesses who married viziers are out of the ordinary.
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