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Sorry to inform you guys of this obvious fact, but King Tut
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best site I know about the Ptolemies is maintained by Chris Bennett:
http://www.geocities.com/christopherjbennett/ptolemies/genealogy.htm

It has a lot of information. Clicking on any of the names in the family tree gives you a page ful of information about the person.
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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hey great stuff. Thanks! By the way, where can I find good information on the Ptolemic period?


That's a very broad topic. Are you looking for general information or something more specific, such as on the Greek pharaohs, period architecture, burial practices, etc.?
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quest
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mixing of Greaco-Roman/Egyptian culture with respect to the Fayum portraits and burial customs.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry it took so long to respond, quest. I'll admit straight out that I'm not too swift at finding good stuff on the internet. Merytre-Hatshepsut is much better at that than I. I did a Yahoo search under "Ptolemaic burial practices" and "Greco-Roman burial masks" and came up with all sorts of links, and wasn't really impressed with any of them--too short on detail. You get the occasional interesting site like this one, but all in all I wasn't intrigued enough to continue the search.

I'm much more of a book man. There's nothing like the feel of a book in one's hands. Plus, I like to write notes in the margins, and I fear my monitor would fill up too quickly were I to do that to my computer! Surprised

Three books that have taught me a great deal are:

Death and the Afterlife in Ancient Egypt, by John Taylor

Death and Burial in Ancient Egypt, by Salima Ikram

The Mummy in Ancient Egypt, by Aidan Dodson and Salima Ikram

These should all be available at Amazon. The last is particularly comprehensive and also fairly expensive, but well worth it. I'm becoming a fan of Salima Ikram, a very intelligent Egyptian Egyptologist who's one of the up-and-comers in her field.

My favorite area of study happens to be death and burial, but I admit I'm not too knowledgeable about burial practices in the Greco-Roman Period. Some Egyptologists consider this time period a separate area of study, more in the Classical era than ancient. The Greeks and Romans had profound influences on the Egyptians, and especially in Roman times we see a degradation in the essence of Egyptian-style burials. Egyptian motifs and symbolism are still used, of course, but they are increasingly less understood and are mixed in with Hellenistic motifs.

An interesting thing about the portrait mummies of the 2nd and 3rd centeries CE is that they often were not immediately buried. It is thought they remained in the homes of the families for a time, in the manner of Roman ancestor worship. Wear and tear on these mummies, as well as the weakening of the bandages in the ankle areas, suggest these mummies were propped up. Cupboards have been found with double-doors that are believed to have been the containers in which these bodies were stored in the home. You could prop open the top door to view the portrait and provide offerings or ask advice of the beloved dead. At a later time groups of mummies were taken together for common, mass burials in the crowded necropoli.

I'll stop there before I bore you too, much, quest. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Maybe Merytre-Hatshepsut could point you in the direction of some interesting websites I missed.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salima Ikram was born in Pakistan. She moved to Egypt several years ago. I agree though, she has become one of the best Egyptologist around!
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Salima Ikram was born in Pakistan.


I didn't even know that. Thanks for pointing that out. She is terrific. Ikram is the one who proved it is possible to preserve bodies by dissolving the internal organs through a caustic injection in the anus. She used cute little bunnies for her experiments.
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Scribe of sHd
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: the dealth blow Reply with quote

Shocked
We Upper Egyptians and other cultures derived from tribal old Egypt are clearly incensed when modern media pretends that we don't exist or marginalize our contributions. In perpetuating the Caucasoid phenotypey issue Zahi HAwass behaved like many modern Egyptians in the employ of the goverment. But westerners like to call anyone different them black. We are not black. But then most westerners are not familiar at all with how diverse east and north Africans are in general. When the debate gets started up again and again one would hope the voices arguing against an African origin for Egypt might actually visit east Africa and observe first hand how diverse the ancient ethnicities are before judging on antiquated precepts on race.
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the voices arguing against an African origin for Egypt

Are there really that many arguing against that? I get the impression that the excavations in for instance Hierakonpolis (Nekhen) put down rather firm connections of the Naqada cultures with this area.
The excavations at this site are rather interesting I think. They show some very old temples, and they have uneathed some predynastic tombs in the very recent past.

I don't think there are any serious theories about egyptian culture being "imported" from some other place. I thought those ideas were thrown out by serious egyptologists quite a while ago. (The only place I have seen them is on some white supremacist sites. And I haven't read them carefully because those folks make my skin crawl.)
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We Upper Egyptians and other cultures derived from tribal old Egypt are clearly incensed when modern media pretends that we don't exist or marginalize our contributions. In perpetuating the Caucasoid phenotypey issue...


Bear in mind the term "caucasoid" in anthropology does not mean "white" alone, as has been repeatedly explained in this discussion. It encompasses a broad range of peoples all over the world. This word generates too much acrimony in this morosely politically correct world because of the misunderstanding of its meaning--when used in its proper context, it does not need to be taken as an insult or as a racist slight.

Merytre-Hatshepsut aptly referrenced the Naqada culture of ancient Nekhen; actually, the Naqada phases far predate this early, predynastic community. Brilliant researchers like Wilkinson have impressively demonstrated that these earliest of Egyptians in Upper Egypt moved in secondly from the south (modern day Sudan and its surroundings) and primarily from the west--the ancestors of the Bedouin, who themselves are very ancient peoples.

Farther north there was an influx of peoples from ancient Libya and, from the northeast, Palastine. This all goes to show that it's silly to try to pin down the origins of the ancient Egyptians to a single, specific people. It's not even realistic. Anthropology and ethnoarchaeology show otherwise; the evidence is there. White supremests can be outright dismissed--their beliefs are based on hate and pure ignorance. Afrocentrists have much more honest intentions but are quite misguided, too. From the very beginning ancient Egypt was a diverse civilization, and that is clearly one of the things that led to its greatness. Wink
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Scribe of sHd
Tomb Robber


Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Hmm Reply with quote

DO you mean to tell me that after all these years of wasting my time over at hall of maat there is actually a person with a real interest in Egyptian archeology that is deeper than a moquitoe bite?

Thank you for that reminder.
I was writing in response to the cover of the recent National Geographic and then the typically dualistic arguments of the for and gainst camps Ive read elswhere and a tiny bit here. The black issue is really grating for a number of reasons. The argument that is often heard is so off target and that is truly disheartening,e specially when Egyptian and Ethiopian recent history are recalled. Both nations having suffered ethnic cleansing much like that we are watching take place if Darfur. That some people continue to pretend that Egyptian ancients looked like French men ( Nat Geo Tut) while discounting all the evidence that would have them resembling Iman or Sadat is baffling to me but also typical.
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Merytre-Hatshepsut
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...have them resembling Iman or Sadat


Very Happy That reminded me of a post I made a while ago on another discussion board I belong to (as does kmt-sesh):
"I have to admit that when I try to picture some of the pharaohs, I secretly picture the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat.
http://www.sis.gov.eg/sadat/html/sadat00.htm

He always loooked very regal to me. "

It really is sad that people get mired in the whole race debate. It adds very little to our understanding of the ancient egyptians. And like you said racism is still rampant with some horrifying effects.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
some people continue to pretend that Egyptian ancients looked like French men


LOL

Add to the repertoire of stately ancient Egyptian royal crowns a cute little beret? Laughing

Quote:
...while discounting all the evidence that would have them resembling Iman or Sadat is baffling to me but also typical.


I agree with Merytre-Hatshepsut on that score--Sadat has that dignified look to him. You can see something of a resemblence between him and some of the better artists' recreations/paintings of Egyptian pharaohs. I agree that some of the recent busts of Tut are perhaps too white, but add a beard and darken the skin and some of those remind me of photos of Libyan men I've seen.
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Psusennes I
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Joined: 09 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's often interesting to see that artists frequently incorporate their own features when representing others. I'm sure there's a name for it. . . .
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's often interesting to see that artists frequently incorporate their own features when representing others. I'm sure there's a name for it. . . .


Ego? Laughing
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Danielle
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL.
Now, I really don't want to bother anyone but I have something to say about the original topic. It's so warm in here, everybody has become hot under the collar. I believe that alot you are scared about talking about 'race'. Some of you have said that you don't care what the colour of skin Tutankhamen had, but I really don't see why you wouldn't. I certainly do. I love learning and I would really like to know the truth and I know that generally speaking skin colour doesn't matter, but when the question is 'what colour is his skin?', then that's all that matters. It's just a question and some of you seem to let fear get in the way.
If it's not a big deal then why has it become one? I have never seen people argue about any other topic before but this one. I don't understand.

I'm not trying to start anything and I definitly won't get into the topic any further, but I just wanted to have my say because none else has said it. It seems the 'race' of Tutankhamen has remained like almost everthing else in Egypt: shrouded in mystery.
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