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Akhenaten's mummy
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Do you think egyptologysts will find Akhenaten's mummy, and if yes, where?
No, they won't find it
45%
 45%  [ 10 ]
Yes, in Thebes
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Yes, in Amarna
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Yes, but somewhere else
36%
 36%  [ 8 ]
They've already found it! It's the KV55's mummy!
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 22

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Lostris
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem with your English, Maatkara. I think I'm too stupid... Razz
Oh, yes, I finally understand what you said about Hawass Very Happy Very Happy Sorry for my "dark" thoughts... So I think Hawass did that test becouse he didn't belive that was really Nefertiti. But I don't know what's the difference... Maybe they can "disturb" a mummy which is not a king, just a normal person. (But in my opinion, a worker's mummy worth as much as a king). A lot of people don't belive the mummy that doctor Fletcher found isn't Nefertiti and I'm sure Hawass doesn't belive it too. May he thought he can 'disturb' it. But I think doing a DNA test isn't disturbing. So maybe, as you said, he wants more and more money Laughing May Hawass' little favourite is King Tut... Laughing Laughing Laughing
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lostris wrote:
Laughing May Hawass' little favourite is King Tut... Laughing Laughing Laughing



Laughing That's funny, Lostris. He DOES use Tut alot in the public eye, or for making money. I'd hope he was only in it to solve a mystery once and for all, but in some cases when it comes to money--and lots of it--I guess that commitment just... "Dies out"? Sad I hope not...
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Lostris
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I belive in modern egyptology. Thanks God in Champollion's time there wasn't TV... Laughing
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly doubt the remains of Akhenaten will ever be found. It's always possible that surviving members of his family took his body from its tomb at Amarna and secreted it away somewhere, perhaps in an as-yet-discovered tomb in the Valley of the Kings, but more than likely it was completely destroyed in the days that Akhetaten was being stripped for its stones. This was one of the most hated men of the entire New Kingdom, and the many whom Akhenaten had offended surely would have loved nothing more than to burn his body to ashes...and therefore destroy his hopes for an eternal afterlife.

Lostris wrote:
Quote:
(But in my opinion, a worker's mummy worth as much as a king)


I think those are wise words. I couldn't agree more. The mummy of an actual pharaoh is of course always exciting to see and study--not to mention the magnificant objects found with it--but a pharaoh is not really representative of the common man. Studying the human remains of a commoner tells us so much more about diet, health, pathology, longevity, ethnicity, and everything else that reveals to us who the ancient Egyptians actually were. Not as glamorous? No, not quite, but a heck of a lot more educational to us.
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
I highly doubt the remains of Akhenaten will ever be found. It's always possible that surviving members of his family took his body from its tomb at Amarna and secreted it away somewhere, perhaps in an as-yet-discovered tomb in the Valley of the Kings, but more than likely it was completely destroyed in the days that Akhetaten was being stripped for its stones. This was one of the most hated men of the entire New Kingdom, and the many whom Akhenaten had offended surely would have loved nothing more than to burn his body to ashes...and therefore destroy his hopes for an eternal afterlife.

Lostris wrote:
Quote:
(But in my opinion, a worker's mummy worth as much as a king)


I think those are wise words. I couldn't agree more. The mummy of an actual pharaoh is of course always exciting to see and study--not to mention the magnificant objects found with it--but a pharaoh is not really representative of the common man. Studying the human remains of a commoner tells us so much more about diet, health, pathology, longevity, ethnicity, and everything else that reveals to us who the ancient Egyptians actually were. Not as glamorous? No, not quite, but a heck of a lot more educational to us.


If I may respond to this, and kmt_sesh, I agree with you on this--Akhenaten's mummy may never be found, the same way that his capital was utterly destroyed, the bricks used as scrap. His body would most likely have been destroyed, however, if his family took the time to hide it well, it could very well be hidden to this day. However, he was hated for changing a religion that was based on 2000 years (at the time) of strong belief, not to mention, he wanted to strip the priests of thier power.

And as for examining mummies, you're also right on that. Many people, especially Hollywood films, portray Pharaohs as perfect and gorgeous men with buff bodies and such, when in fact the pharaohs were not always perfect. Commoners were also the same, and it is interesting to see that the majority of reserching an Egyptian society was studying thier mummies.

Though when people hear of the word "Pharaoh", they automatically either think of King Tut, or a mighty, well-built man in his thirties with the adornments of an Egyptian king, looking proud, tall, and handsome. If they had made a movie on Amenhotep III, for example, Hollywood would NEVER portray him as an overweight, bald man with absessed teeth--unless, of course, if it was a documentary from Discovery channel or National Geographic!! Laughing Very Happy They would portray him as an adonis, the object of every woman's heart, the "Heartthrob", as it's been called alot. Wink But the truth still stands--not ALL pharaohs were perfect. I couldn't imagine Akhenaten as an adonis! Shocked ... Laughing Which would be amusing to see. ^_^

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Lostris
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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Location: Miskolc, Hungary

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So sad... Sad I'd be interested in Akhenaten's mummy. As I saw from his statues, he was a very nice man (I hate those who say he was extremely ugly - they're wrong! He was beautiful!) I was wondering if he was like his statues in real life. Hope yes. Anyway, that's true that a pharaoh's mummy can be more famous and celebrated like a scribe's, but I think we shold give the last regard for the workers, too, and respect them. But, yes, most people prefer a king's mummy than a workers. I think both of them are interesting. Expecially Akhenaten would be interesting... Embarassed Very Happy Smile Hehehe...

Thanks! Not I did mine, but you can find really beautiful anime/manga avatars here: http://www.daydreamgraphics.com but my favourite is this site - the only problem is that they have only 100x100 avatars... Sad http://www.aethereality.net
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the_tutness_is_here
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Joined: 09 May 2005
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Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you, Lostris...my friend saw a picture of his giant statue from the Cairo museum, and she called him "ugly as sin". Shocked Crying or Very sad I thought it was mean...Akhenaten defies the laws of proportion, it's true, but that's what makes us look at him in awe and wonder. He is beautiful in his own way, lol. Wink Laughing
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Lostris
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, yes, yes!!! I think too!!!! Just look at his beautiful long nose and mysterious eyes and that wonderful mouth... Yes, his body was... ehum... weird, but I like him in that case too if he had a body like a hippo. I adore him! Akhenaten ruleZ!!! Cool
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I share that enthusiasm with you, Lostris!! ^_^ I love to study on Tut AND Akhenaten, and they are father and son, so it's even MORE interesting!! Laughing Wink
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to do this again, but it is not a concrete fact that they were father and son, although I believe theyw ere, it has yet to be proven completely (I think).
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you also believe that they were father and son, Si-amun. And the only evidence found was a Stele in Akhetaten that read: "King's own bodily son, his beloved, Tutankhaten." Though Osiris II and I already talked on the subject in another forum, I still strongly believe that they were Father and son, and if ANY more evidence can be found on this, I will die happy! lol. Laughing Wink
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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lostris wrote:
Quote:
I was wondering if he [Akhenaten] was like his statues in real life.


It's highly unlikely Akhenaten even remotely resembled the unique and bizarre statues and reliefs for which he is famous. So distinctive are these forms that they are principally used to illustrate the pharaoh on web pages or in magazine articles or books written about him. Neglected in much literature is the later Amarna statuary of Akhenaten, which depicts him as a quite ordinary-looking man.

Egyptologists still argue over precisely why many of these statues and reliefs depict him in such an odd form. The old theories that he suffered from a disease like Marfan's Syndrome have lost a lot of ground, but the debate otherwise goes on. I favor the explanation held by probably most professionals in the field, who tell us this odd statuary form is probably a religo-artistic convention. By all accounts Akhenaten was obsessed with his worship of the Aten to the point that he deemed only himself out of all mankind as being fit to be its intermediary and representative, and was therefore himself fully divine.

Note that the deity Akhenaten favored above all others is completely androgynous; well, so are numerous Egyptian deities, but the Aten (the physical disk of the sun) is a perfect example of this. The highly unusual statuary of the early Amarna Period is likewise androgynous, containing both the masculine and the feminine in a single form. Sometimes it's even difficult in reliefs and statuary to distinguish Akhenaten from Nefertiti unless hieroglyphic inscriptions are present. The argument is that these odd statues reflect the divinely androgynous form of the deity that ruled from Akhetaten; Akhenaten wanted to appear as a divine personage to reflect the position in which he placed himself in Atenism.

That got terrible wordy. My apologies. Surprised I just hope I got my point across.

Si-amun wrote:
Quote:
Sorry to do this again, but it is not a concrete fact that they were father and son, although I believe theyw ere, it has yet to be proven completely (I think).


You're right, of course. There is as yet no conclusive proof of Tut's parentage, but Akhenaten and Kiya are still the leading contestants. Tut's mother is even less clear than his father, but it's highly doubtful she was Nefertiti. And Tut is definitely recorded as "King's son," so that narrows it down. I for one completely doubt it was Amunhotep III, who by all accounts was quite ill and weak by the late part of his reign; if the body identified as Amunhotep III is in fact him (that's not 100% certain), he was also rather obese in his "golden years." I also don't see it as being the mysterious Smenkaure, whose short reign came along too late for this. I think Akhenaten is the likeliest person as the father of Tutankhamun.

But in the end you're right. We still can't be sure. Wink
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, my old friend kmt_sesh! Very Happy Laughing Wink

Thank you...I meet few people that believe that Tut and Akhenaten were father and son, and I'm glad you share my belief. I also argued that Amenhotep III was too sickly and old. And the stele that was found to declare Tut as a king's son, was found in Akhetaten, and even if Amenhotep III was miraculously alive, he would be in Thebes, possibly dieing from the absess in his teeth, which has been known to be fatal.

As for Akhenaten's art form, I both agree and disagree with you, which seems odd now, but let me explain:

Akhenaten also wanted the artists in his new capital to use the art form according to Maat, or "Truth".I agree that Akhenaten was obviously NOT andrognyous in real life, and he wanted to make himself the ultimate deity, portraying himself as the creator god, both father AND mother.

However, as for his physical appearance, he wanted to portray himself as he was, imperfect and according to the truth. He seemed like an honest pharaoh on THAT aspect. Wink And the literary part--if you read "The Children of the Lamp: The Akhenaten Adventure" (and I have a forum for this in the coffee lounge), I promise you nothing but repulsive imagery, because it is dreadfull enough that the author--P.B. Kerr--made him an evil jinn spirit whose mother was a witch. Mad And they made him very...demonic...and I tossed the book aside. I know it's fiction, but when it comes to one of my favorite pharaohs--and a family man, according to some artwork--that was just degredation at its best.

So, it seems, ol' Akhenaten not only "founded Heliopolis", but he was an evil jinn?! Shocked Laughing Laughing (And I hope you got the inside joke on the whole "Heliopolis" thing, kmt!! Laughing Laughing Very Happy Wink ).

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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh has written:
I for one completely doubt it was Amunhotep III, who by all accounts was quite ill and weak by the late part of his reign; if the body identified as Amunhotep III is in fact him (that's not 100% certain), he was also rather obese in his "golden years." I also don't see it as being the mysterious Smenkaure, whose short reign came along too late for this. I think Akhenaten is the likeliest person as the father of Tutankhamun.
May I suggest that you get a copy of Frederick J. Giles' "The Amarna Years: Egypt" He has excellent arguments for a co-regency between Akhenaten and his father, Amenhotep III.
He has written 5, so be sure to get the "Egypt" edition.
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Somehow, Osiris II, I KNEW you would come onto this particular forum!! Wink And we DID debate on this in the other forum...the "Arguing with Hawass" forum I believe it was. It's great to hear your end, and I actually would like to read the book you have reccomended. My research came from Nicholas Reeves' "The Complete Tutankhamun", though it was short-lived, due to the fact that it was a library book, and had to return it, sadly... Sad
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