Ancient Egyptian Forum

Amon™ · Servant Joined: 29 Jan 2005 Posts: 7

im just wondering was there inbreeding if there was how prevelent was it and did it have any physical effects.
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Nefer_Sat · Servant Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 6 Location: Canada

Given that in most other long-standing royal lines, inbreeding did occur to varying extents, I'd suspect that there was in the Egyptian lines as well. I don't mean that every king married his sister, but I have read articles (sorry, can't remember any links) that suggest certain kings might have included cousins in their harem of wives. Bear in mind also that Isis was Osiris's sister-wife. There's inbreeding if I ever saw it!

Si-amun · Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:

Inbreeding was quite common amongst the Royal Family as it was thought to "keep the blooline pure" but it has been thoguht unlikely that it was acceptable outside of the Palace. Inbreeding was also a lot closer than cousin relationships (which are actually legal today). Amenhotep III for example married one of his own daughters, Tutankhmun married his probable half-sister, Cleoaptra marrie dboth of her brothers and it is thought that Ankhesenamun married a man commonly thoguht to be ehr own grandfather (Ay). Inbreeding was quite common to a certain extent but true brother/sister relationships didn't properly develop until the Ptolomaic era under Greek influence.
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Neb-Ma'at-Re · Pharaoh Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 690

Si-amun,
Didn't Akhenaten also marry Ankhesenamun (then Akhesepa'aten) some time shortly before his death?
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Si-amun · Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject:

Of course! Thanks for that. Anesenpa'aten would ahve married most of the Amarna court (if the theories of many Egyptologists are right lol) I was just highlighting a few famous cases of incest though, there were of course literally hundreds of others but I couldn't think of them off the top of my head.
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bel · Pharaoh Joined: 25 May 2003 Posts: 501

Let's not forget aboiut Hatshepsut and how she came into her rule; as an anionted God.
Hatshepsut was the daughter of Pharaoh Thutmose I (a commoner and 3rd ruler of the 18th Dynasty) and Queen Ahmoes Nefertari. She was born in 1503 BCE (Before Common Era). Hatshepsut received her sovereign rights by right of maternal descent from the 12th Dynasty Queen Nefertari (Neferteti), who supposedly was the true daughter of the god Amun.
~ Thutmose was able to rule because his wife was a descendant of the god and it had become tradition that one could only rule Egypt if they were the descendant of Ra or Amun or if they were married to one. It was the Queens and Princess who carried the right of.~
Hatshepsut was not originally the Heiress-Princess but became so when her three older siblings died: her brothers, Wadjmose and Amenmose and her sister, Neferuity. There are many conflicting stories as to when Hatshepsut began her rule, one (that I choose to believe) is that she ruled as Queen and Queen-Regent while her father was still alive. Perhaps as a way to teach Hatshepsut the ways of governing rather quickly. You must remember that all Hatshepsut had been taught, up till her sibling's deaths, was how to be a "good" wife. With her older sibling's death, Hatshepsut had to be brought up to speed on what was going on in court. Many have taken it that Pharaoh Thutmose favored Hatshepsut over his son, Hatshepsut's stepbrother. Generally, history agrees that Thutmose II was a less then good leader and that it was only natural for someone to take over, it repeats constantly in history. Although most probably didn't expect Hatshepsut to take over as well as she did, but then they also forget that Hatshepsut ruled for many years as her father's co-ruler before he died.
Of coarse there was incest here.

Neb-Ma'at-Re · Pharaoh Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 690

bel · Pharaoh Joined: 25 May 2003 Posts: 501

Sorry about the name mixup there; ya know tha Ahmose and all. But on a more seriously note Hatshepsut did rule next to her father at a very early age and he did fill her full of the divine seed; if ya jnow what I mean.... back on subject.

maatkara · Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:43 am Post subject:

Sorry for insisting on the same point, but you all MUST admit:
HATSHEPSUT HAS BEEN THE GREATEST FEMALE-RULER, maybe one of the best among all,and still a woman at her time! Cool

hatshepsut is the best! Laughing

Si-amun · Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject:

hmmmmm, can some detect a bias here! lol, it could almost be argued that she was no more remarkable than her predecessor, just because she was a woman people think of her reign as amazing when in fact it was rather average! Tuthmosis III, now that WAS an eventful reign, Amenhotep III, that was also a VERY eventful reign. Hatchepsut.... thoroughly average I am afraid!
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Neb-Ma'at-Re · Pharaoh Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 690

Hatshepsuts reign from a military perspective was very uneventiful indeed but it was her ability to break tradition and rule as a female Pharaoh, not a Queen regent, that makes her such an amazing woman. It was essential for her to concoct the divine conception story in order to legitimize her position as Pharaoh.

I wouldn't go so far as to say her reign was uneventful. I would say that the reign of Thutmoses III and Amenhotep III were exceptional. The mere fact that she was a female Pharaoh and her rise to power was quite an event in itself. She also carried out some very nice construction projects, although they pale in comparison to say Ramses II. In my opinion, her morutary temple (Djeser-Djeseru) at Deir el Bahri is the most aesthetically wonderful buildings in all of Egypt. Plus, her expidition to Punt is the most well documented in history.
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bel · Pharaoh Joined: 25 May 2003 Posts: 501

Thutmose III was a little napeleon. Haven't any of you ran into this sort of syndrome in men this day and time; I know I have!
Also what make's it so sure that she made of the story of being divine? Because she doesn't depict being inpregnated (Incestual) but merely suckling from Hathor the great cow Goddess upon her temple wall's? After all she was borm from Ahmose, was she not and Thutmose although not of divine origin was pharoah was he not?

Si-amun · Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject:

What I meant was in all honesty her reign is uneventful apart from the fact she was a woman. If you beleive that sex is not particularly important and we take it out of the equation then in all fairness her reign was uneventful. The expedition to Punt wasn't the first, nor the last and your comment about her temple, well it was based on an earlier design by a Pharoah called Montuhotep so it wasn't even original! I dont mean to rubbish her reign, her ascent to power was quite well done (but in fairness she wasn't the first or last female ruler/Pharaoh). Yes, an interesting woman but rather a plain King to be honest.
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Thou dost appear beautiful on the horizon of heaven, oh living Amun, he who was the first to live.

maatkara · Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:18 am Post subject:

Being innovative in ancient Egypt was not a good thought!
Maat had to remain the same through the centuries and so did happen with the writings as well as with the art styles. The main aim of Hatshepsut was to establish the Order of the Ancestors throught the art...this important way of thinking has been characterising the whole Egyptian history. Indeed, during bad periods of the Egyptian History, the art is more strongly back the old styles...Harwa is a clear example (just to referr to my article! Wink

)
About Thotmes III I wish to add that his greatness has been possible also thanks to what Hatshepsut left him and how she's been preparing him to become a king...
About Punt Expeditions, well the last one operated before Hatshepsut has been realised something like 6 to 800 years before, if I'm not wrong, and when she decided for this enterprise they didn't even know where Punt was!!! An italian team of famous archaeologysts has spent the last five years in researches for traces of the Punt expeditions...what they found is definitly amasing!( www.archaeogate.it )
Maybe her military actions are not so known because we always think about military expedition as to "conquer"...this has never been the aim of the Ancients!...Military actions has been taken by Hatshepsut in order to keep the order inside the borders of the Country, which was of greatest importace than that of conquering...Maat was ruling her life, and she did well!
She's been inspiring to the Ancient about a lot of arguments..and you are considering her "poor of ideas" for this? I really believe that this thought was the winning one, if you can understand what I mean! Many were the great kings, and queens as well, but Hatshepsut, no doubt she was a SPECIAL ONE! Wink

Si-amun · Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:41 am Post subject:

I agree that she was a special woman, I cannot refute that but for me she didn't do anything amazing or great that sets her aside from the fact that she was a woman. If Hatchepsut had been a nman do you think we would be in such awe of her? A great ruler is not a man or a woman primarily, they are a great ruler. Amenhotep III would have been a great ruler regardless of his sex, as would Ramses II. The only reason hatchepsut is remebered so lovingly isa the fact that she wasn't a man, that she was an exception. If I haven't explained myself well then i ams orry but I believe that the greatness of Hatchepsut lies solely in her sex and not her accomplishments. Yes, the expedition to Punt was an achievement but nothing that her ancestors almost a millenia achieved just as easily. She didn't discover a new land, or a new people, she wasn't importing new luxuries and she wasn't really bennefitting her country in any great way. She built a pretty temple, copied from a local Temple already a millennia old. She became a female ruler, perhaps the third or fourth to do so in Egypt but she made no reforms, her line died out within a generation of her own death and the egacy she left Tuthmosis III was no stronger than the legacy she had been left by Tuthmosis II. Her only achievement is being remembered for being born a female.
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Thou dost appear beautiful on the horizon of heaven, oh living Amun, he who was the first to live.