Ancient Egyptian Forum

Psusennes I · Pharaoh Joined: 09 Sep 2004 Posts: 913 Location: England

One God who is almost always misssed from the Family tree of Geb and Nut is Horus the Elder. It was actually he who defeated Seth supposedly, whilst Harseis (Horus the younger) was raised at Buto.

Does anyone else know any more about this- as different myths vary hugely?
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Si-amun · Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject:

In the version that I read (translated by Budge) it is made quite clear that it was Horus the Younger who defeated Set. You also have the stories of the rape of Horus that pacifically mention that it is Horus the Younger, also in the case brought before the ennead it is said that Horus was the son of Osiris and not any other relation. I believe it to be more accepted that it was the son of Osiris and not another relation. Horus also inherits his fathers position, there is no mention of one Horus handing the role over to another. There are stories of Horus the child hiding whilst he grows, showing that Set was still around when Horus was reaching puberty.
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Psusennes I · Pharaoh Joined: 09 Sep 2004 Posts: 913 Location: England

In my doing more research (odd but correct grammatical construction there) I have found that Horus the Elder was one of the main creator Gods. It was he who flew to hold up the sky at the beginning of time to hold up the sky, and he is also the Horus who was first assosciated with the Solar and Lunar eyes of Horus. Later this symbolism extended to Horus the younger during his blinding and healing by Hathor etc.
In the Pyramid texts, the battle of chaos against truth is fought between Horus the Elder and Seth. Horus the Elder has his left eye ripped out by Seth, and in return Horus castrates his brother (although he must have had his genitalia restored before the later parts of the myth and the lettuce episode). In the earlier versions of the myth it is indeed Horus the Elder who fought and repeatedly defeated Seth, and they are shown as the two sons of Ra in the Pyramid Texts.
Horus the Younger, son of Osiris was originally a minor god, protected by Isis and by his uncle, Horus the Elder. Later however he became more popular and was worshipped not as Harpkhrad (the infant Horus) but as Harseisis. Harseis replaced Horus the Elder and became the new all-encompassing Horus and thus Horus the Elder vanished from the Egyptian Pantheon.

This explains why the are discrepancies. I hope that this helps.
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Anubis · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:16 am Post subject: what I've learned

I have been studying the gods and goddesses' famly tree and here is what i have so far:

Ra/Re emerged from Nun, the reging waters of chaos. from Ra/Re came Shu and Tefnut. From Shu and Tefnut came Nut and Geb. From Nut and Geb came Isis, Osiris, Nephthys, and Seth/Set. From Isis and Osiris came Horus and from Nephthys and Osiris came (my personal favorite) Anubis. From Horus came Amset, Hapi, Duametef, and Khebehsenuf. Oh yes. From Ra/Re and Nut came Hathor.

And thats all I know so far. If you have any more info please tell me. Very Happy

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Osiris_God · Scribe Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 51 Location: Canada

Sorry i cant help you.

rich · Scribe Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 71

There are many problem with figuring out relationships in egyptology.

Ra(Sokar)/Sekhet are parents of Geb
Shu/Tephnuit are parents of Nuit... Nuit Might be Nepthys(?)
Geb and Nuit have 3 sons - Osiris, Horus(over the horizon), Seth

The Horus line is very tricky because they are all called Horus after Horus over the Horizon.

Osiris marries Isis(not his sister)(translation error of daughter vs. daughter in law), Seth marries Merneith(Neith)

Nepthys is described as a second wife of Seth... who never had sex with him.... she could also be mom coming to live with him after Geb dies (it is not clear)

Osiris and Nepthys have a son(Amset) (previous incorrectly guessed Anubis). Seth kills Osiris for sleeping with Nepthys (unclear if this is mom, or his second wife).

Isis remarries Horus Over the Horizon. They have 3 sons, plus one adopted son.
Amset(human) - marries Ta bitjet(Qa hedjet)
Hapi(Babboon) - unknown wife
Tuamatef(jackal) marries Buto
Quebsenuf(falcon) - marries (Nekhebet)

On the Seth side:
Seth - married to Merneith
Den(Sobek)(Crododile)
Den marries Hathor (Heret-Hor)
Buto(Wadjet) marries Tuamatef(Anubis)
Buto has a daughter nekhebet, and a second child(Bastet or Nefertum)
Bastet marries Semerket(Nefertum)
They have a son Qaa(Maahes)
Huni seems to be the next pharoah

maatkara · Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:32 am Post subject:

?????

rich · Scribe Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 71

Amun-Ra is Ra(fathered by Amun) and equivalent to Ptah-Soker

Horus Line:
Ptah (Amun) (Aten)
Ra (Seker)(Soker) - married to Sekhet(Sekhmet)
Su (Shu) - married to Tephnuit
Seb (Geb) - married to Herneith
Osiris - married to Isis
Set (Seth)(Wadj) - married to Merneith(Neith)
Horus (over the Horizon?)(The Elder?) - married to Isis
Thoth(Imhotep?) - married to Maat?
Ma(Mestha / Amset) (human) - married to Ta Bitjet(Qa Hedjet?)
Horus - Quebsenuf (Heru)(falcon) - married to Nekhebet
Bandjedat(Ba)(Heru-Behutet) - married to Hatmehet
Sa(Goose)

maatkara · Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:17 am Post subject:

Horus is mostly considered to be married to Hathor! Have ever heard?
his mother is Isis....
I can't continue...

I only wish to know what is your aim, Rich? Rolling Eyes

rich · Scribe Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 71

Great point Maatkare.

That is why I post here... to offer CONTROVERSIAL new interpretations. My argument is that Egyptian History has been GROSSLY mis-interpreted. There is much more evidence today, on how these names / king lists should be interpreted, and these king-lists like the narmer pallete didn't exist before... archaeologists filled in the blanks by GUESSING... and sometimes GUESSED WRONG. I guess wrong too sometimes.

Here is an example of GROSS Mis-interpretation:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg07.htm

This picture is DEFINITELY not Isis... you can see a little VULTURE on the COW head-piece ....

http://www.suziemanley.com/november/hathor.htm
(old, younger, youngest) (youngest holding the sun)(oldest with long hair)
(picture of hathor, buto, nekhebet)

A conventional argument, just like you mentioned, is that the picture in the first link is Hathor with the cow headpiece.... but I believe a Cow headpiece with a Vulture is Nekhebet. In the Text of the story are the names Wadjet(Buto) and Nekhebet. I have these two goddesses as being both mother and daughter and sister-in-laws.

1 picture, 3 different translations, 3 different opinions... Isis, Hathor and Nekhebet. This is very common in Egyptology.

I believe that many scholars have previously looked at pictures of different Falcon Pharoahs with DIFFERENT NAMES, and incorrrectly grouped them all into a single Horus. Sometimes a different name signifies a different person.

It is my hope that people explore theories like this, look critically, and offer alternatives / fill in the blanks / or prove it wrong.

Or that some scholar picks up on this idea, and proves it correct.

rich · Scribe Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 71

Another theory.... Selket(The scorpion goddess) is often described as one of the protectors of Horus 4 children. Amset's wife is Ta Bitjet(Qa Hedjet?), who is also a scorpion goddess. Ta Bitjet would make more sense than Selket, who is probably the wife of Selk(Scorpion) (who seems to be the Scorpion King, like the movie)(pre-dynastic).

Matching up mythological signs to heiroglyphs is also hard.... for instance, Seth is shown as a wild boar in the above links (there is mythology explaining why he is shown as a boar)(The idea that seth is "hippopotomus fiend" is a bad interpretation).

And yet, Seth is a king of upper egypt, and winds up with the heiroglyph of a scorpion. He is also pictured wearing the scorpion hat of upper egypt.

Selk and Seth are both of the 2 scorpion kings.

If there was a family tree of the gods, maybe these scholars wouldn't make so many mistakes.

rich · Scribe Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 71

Maatkare,
There is an Egyptian Legend that talks about one of the Horus son's being the son of Nepthys and Osiris, with Isis pretending she is the real-mom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepthys

I was guessing Anubis, because I read it in many places, including the above link... but now that I think about it, that wouldn't make sense, unless Anubis is the oldest of the brothers. If it is a true story, then it would appear that Amset/Mestha is the oldest. It might explain why AMSET has the sign of a Human... being a child out of wedlock.

It now seems pretty obvious that Isis marries Horus AFTER Osiris is Dead... if he were to have a child, it would have to come BEFORE Horus and Isis's 3 other sons.

I've got to re-find the legend and study it more in-depth.