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Is The Infamous "Nefertiti Mummy" really her?
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Tadukhipa
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious... ..exactly what procedures did she break?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2004 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main falt attributed to Fletcher by both Hawass and the SCA is that she released information herself. SCA policy states that any new ideas or theories will be submitted to the SCA, and they will release it to the press.
It sounds like a small matter, but evidently Fletcher signed a contract with the SCA that she would do that, and then violated her own contract. Hawass is so incensed by her actions that he wants to cancel any excavtions she may want to do in the future. I don't think we've heard the last of all this yet. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop!
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2004 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main falt attributed to Fletcher by both Hawass and the SCA is that she released information herself. SCA policy states that any new ideas or theories will be submitted to the SCA, and they will release it to the press.
It sounds like a small matter, but evidently Fletcher signed a contract with the SCA that she would do that, and then violated her own contract. Hawass is so incensed by her actions that he wants to cancel any excavtions she may want to do in the future. I don't think we've heard the last of all this yet. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop!
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Sekhmet
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Joined: 20 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2004 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: The Ederly Woman Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
All of this discussion is quite pointless if, and it's a large IF, the news recently released by Dr. Hawass is true. A recent DNA study of the "Elderly Woman" says that she is a...man!
The report is on the net, was authorized by the SCA, given to Hawass who released it to the public.
I don't have the address any longer--perhaps a search can be done on Google to find it.


Hi Osiris II,
It is the Elder Lady, her sex has never been questioned either. I do believe you have Elder Lady mixed up with the Younger Lady. Younger Lady has been classified as both female and male since the trio's discovery. Originally classified as male, due to its shaved head. After x-rays Younger Lady was reclassified as female.
Elder Lady is Cairo Museum Catalogue Number 61070
Young boy is Cairo Museum Catalogue Number 61071
Younger Lady is Cairo Museum Catalogue Number 610072
The identification of these 3 mummies can be found in many books but my resource is KmT A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt, Vol. 14 Number 3 Fall 2003, page 24.

I visited the website you provided and discovered that it was the Younger Lady that underwent the DNA testing for sex identification. Please note on the report it states Mummy 61072. Thanks for the site by the way.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elder Lady is Cairo Museum Catalogue Number 61070
Young boy is Cairo Museum Catalogue Number 61071
Younger Lady is Cairo Museum Catalogue Number 610072

Sorry, but these three mummies are not in the Cairo museum, but still in the tomb of Amenhotep II. They are only CATALOGED in the Cairo museum.
I am in error saying that the Elderly Lady had been identified as a male--it was the Younger Woman.
While it is true that the gender of the Younger Woman has been much disussed and theorized since its discovery, I was just citing the latest information from Dr. Hawass. And as I have stated elsewhere on this board, I , personally, to not believe it's true--I think that the gender of the mummy in question is a female.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't the Elder lady believed to be Tiye the Great Wife of Amenhotep III.Why would the mummy then be thought to be a male?
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
Isn't the Elder lady believed to be Tiye the Great Wife of Amenhotep III.Why would the mummy then be thought to be a male?


You're right Ankhesenamun3! Elder Lady is considered by many experts to be Queen Tiye. It never has been considered a male, always a female. I think Orisis II just got them mixed up. It is easy enough mix up mummies unless you have a prompt like i do taped to my computer monitor Cool It helps to know the mummies CMC number i just happen to have them on these three mummies. Kmt is such a helpful magazine the Summer Issue is coming out soon Smile Everyone head to your local bookstore magazine section and read it for free!
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of magazine is Kmt?
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun3 wrote:
What kind of magazine is Kmt?


Hi Ankhesenamun3 Kmt's full title is Kmt A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt. It is published 4 times a year and is full are articles about Ancient Egypt. It is stuff full of color photographs, and offers the latest information about lectures. If you love Ancient Egypt it is the best magazine to get on Ancient Egypt. They have a website (Kmt.com) you can visit, however they don't offer anything there but the covers and what is being included in the next issue. It costs about 8 dollars an issue pretty steep for those of us on a tight budget but at bookstores you can usually read it for free. If your like me even after reading for free i still buy it because it does contain so much good stuff and is a great resource magazine.
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Razz Cool, I will have to check it out at Barnes and Noble.
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Lady Neferankh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I think there are several suspects we could consider

Meritaten

Sitamon-sister of Akhenaten

Baketamon-younger sister of Akhenaten

Nefruaten ta-sherit-younger sister of Ankhsenamon by the end of Tutankhamons reign she may have been in her late teens.

An unknown secondary wife or daughter by secondary wife of some pharaoh

By the way even though DNA tests show that it could be male I still think the mummy looks like Nefertiti especially about the jaw.

Even if the mummy were proven to be a male though there are still many questions as to who it might be.

Thutmose-son of Amonhotep III and Queen Tiy

Amonmose-a brother of Hatshepsut who I read was supposed to have been relatively young at death

Wadjmose-also a brother of Hatshepsut
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Ankhesenamun3
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I finally got Kmt which I found at Barnes and Noble. It is a wonderful Journal. Thanks for telling me about it!
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Baketaten
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:54 am    Post subject: Might be Nefertiti, might be Meritaten Reply with quote

Hawass writes in his "Hidden Treasures of the Cairo Museum" that DNA testing of material that old is not yet advanced enough to recover enough data to prove relationships. That's his story, anyway. I don't think it has much to do with respect -- he doesn't mind showing off his Golden Mummies of the Bahariya Oasis every chance he gets. I think in our lifetimes we'll get the answers through DNA testing of who among those Amarna-era mummies is related to whom.


I wonder, though, why no one ever asks who's the young boy found with the so-called "Elder Lady" and "Younger Lady" I've always wondered if he was Thutmose V, Akhenaten's short-lived older brother. Any ideas?
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maatkara
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciao Baketaten! Very Happy
first I wish to welcome you here at KTO!... Very Happy
then I wish to ask you if possible to give also a link to a site were Hawass said something like that. I am very curious about the matter of DNA testing, even because, for what we knew, it was not intention of SCA to make any test of DNA....
Please, if you'll have the chance, tell us where did you read these news! I would really appreciate! Wink
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Baketaten
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:32 pm    Post subject: Hawass, DNA and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Hi, Maatkara! I got the title of the book wrong: it's "Hidden treasures of Ancient Egypt: Unearthing the Masterpieces of Egyptian History," by Zahi Hawass. It came out last year from National Geographic Books and has beautiful pictures.

Anyway, here's what Hawass has to say on page 227:

"Many people woul love to see this debate (on the mummy of the Younger Lady) resolved through the use of DNA analysis. However, a certain uninterrupted length of the DNA chain must be recovered for accurate analysis to be carried out. Much of the DNA within mummies has decayed, and sufficiently long sequences have not yet been able to be recovered. The few positive results gained using current techniques are in each case likely to be the result of modern contamination. In fact, the SCA did do a chromosome test on this mummy, and determined that it was male. However, we consider this result tentative, and leave open the possibility that it is a product of contamination. The available technology for DNA analysis is not yet reliable, and there are no labs in Egypt capable of doing "ancient DNA" research. Once labs have developed effective methods for analyzing shorter sequences of DNA, we will allow them to be used on Egyptian mummies. Perhaps many mysteries will finally be solved!"

I don't know anything about the science and can't evaluate Hawass' claims. But it does sound as if he doesn't want any genetic material from the mummies taken out of Egypt for lab work.

On the same page of the book, Hawass argues for the return of the Nefertiti bust now in the Berlin Museum:

"The loss of this portrait head ... is still a point of contention with Egyptian Egyptologists, and with the many foreign archaeologists who support us ... The German excavations of the pre-World War I seasons were subject to an equitable division of finds: Half went to the country, organization or individual who funded the work, and the other half stayed in Egypt ... Many people, myself included, believe that (excavator Ludwig) Borchardt disguised the head by encasing it in mud plaster so that the Egyptians, believing it to be relatively unimportant, would let it leave the country."
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