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The Admonitions of Ipuwer

 
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zampeada
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 9:53 am    Post subject: The Admonitions of Ipuwer Reply with quote

The papyrus written by Ipuwer, contain description of mysterious devastated egypt ... which is similar to the 10 plagues described in Bible... Comment plz...
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: The Admonitions of Ipuwer Reply with quote

zampeada wrote:
The papyrus written by Ipuwer, contain description of mysterious devastated egypt ... which is similar to the 10 plagues described in Bible... Comment plz...


Hi Zampeada,

The papyrus Ipuwer is most often used by those, like me that support the theory that the Exodus, resulted in the collapse of the Old Kingdom. i am going to quote Nicolas Grimal from his A History of Ancient Egypt page 138.
"Manetho's description f the Seventh Dynasty betrays the confused nature of his sources: 'seventy kings in seventy days'/ This formulation may have been a pun on the numer of the dynasty, emphaizing its ephemeral character, or it may have been a metaphor for the seventy creative forces in the Helioplitan cosmology. The Egyptian sources themselves are relatively quiet about this shadowy period. The only known writtn evidence is a literary work, of a somewhat apocryphal nature, which has survived in the form of a single manuscript. This text, said to have been written by a man called Ipuwer, is an apocalyptic evocation of the crimes committed in his lifetime. The general tone and the choice of facts in the 'prophetic Admonitions suggest that the aims of the work were political, Ipuwer longs for the order that prevailed in the past as he describes the state of decline of central power and the lack of a strong king."

Now from the Synchronized Chronology Rethinking Middle East Antiquity by Roger Henry, which in my most humble opinion isn't worth the money i spent to get it except for his section on the Pyprus Ipuwer. He is correct when he states that Dr. Velikovsky was the first scholar to realize that they were very similar to what is described in scripture.
Page 25 and 26
Papyrus 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everwhere.
Exodus 7:20... all the waters there were in the river were turned to blood.

Papyrus 2:10 The river is blood. Men shrink from tasting human beings, and thirst after water. Forsooth, gates columns and walls are consumded by fire.
Exodus 7:24 And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
Exodus 9:23... and fire run along upon the ground.

Papyrus 2:11 The towns are all destroyed.
Papyrus 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everwhere.
Exodus 12:30 And Pharaoh rosed up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; For there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Papyrus 3:13 All is ruin.
Papyrus 4:2 Years of noise. There is no end to noise.
Papyrus 4:3 Foorsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
Papyrus 3:14 It is groaning that is throughtout the land, mingled with lamentations.
Papyrus 4:2 Great and small say, I wish I might die.
Papyrus 3:1 Forsooth, the Desert is throughtout the land. The nomes are laid waste. A foreign tribe from abroad has come to Egypt.

Papyrus 4:14 Trees are destroyed.
Exodus 10:15... and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:31 And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was boiled.

Papyrus 7:1 Behold the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning gores forth against the enemies of the land.
Exodus 13:21 And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead t hem the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

Papyrus 9:11 The land is not light (it's dark)
Exodus 10:22-23 and ther was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days.

Papyrus 7:1-2 [The pharaoh was lost under unusual circumstances] that have never happened before.

Papyrus 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan.
Papyrus 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together. Each man fetches for himself those that are branded with his name.
Exodus (:3 Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.

There is alot more but this is all i have from the above referenced book. One of my favorites but not included in this book is... Payprus, verse unknown; And the handmaidens go about as ladies, dressed in their mistress' finest.

According to Ipuwer tombs are robbed, Egypt is just laid waste.

Traditionally the Papyrus of Ipuwer, Admonitions is considered to be dated to the early First Intermediate Period, or the 7th Dynasty.

As i said at the start this is used by many as proof that the Old Kingdom collapse was because of the Exodus. It is not my only proof. It is just another piece in the long story of finding who was the Pharaoh that freed Joseph the son of Jacob.

There is by the way a growing movement to push back the date of the Papyrus of Ipuwer, to that of the end of the 13th Dynasty or the Early 2nd Intermediate Period. This movement does not have a great deal of support as of today.

I suggest you do a web search on it, i bet you find more verses on the web.
Hope you have a nice day.
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zampeada
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you. i was so excited reading it... until i decided to get my hands on the full transcript of it online...

dont get me wrong... i believe that the 10 plagues did happen... after reading the papyrus... i couldn't really identify anything similar to 10 plagues... i mean... yes there was blood mention... but the blood mention in papyrus does not describe the 10 plagues... for example,

On the 2nd sheets:

Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.

Indeed, the river is blood, yet men drink of it. Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water.

my comments: Blood mentioned on the first excerpt was probably about crime that was so terrifying around that time. The second, was indeed somekind of simile. Blood is a simile in it... blood here represents life... thats why people drink it. Next... "Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water" was symbolized oppression to other people... I mean one oppressed people (drain they life) as so we could live.

It was a very interesting... but as to draw conclusion to describe 10 plagues was rather illusion.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zampeada wrote:
thank you. i was so excited reading it... until i decided to get my hands on the full transcript of it online...

dont get me wrong... i believe that the 10 plagues did happen... after reading the papyrus... i couldn't really identify anything similar to 10 plagues... i mean... yes there was blood mention... but the blood mention in papyrus does not describe the 10 plagues... for example,

On the 2nd sheets:

Indeed, [hearts] are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy-cloth speaks even before one comes near it.

Indeed, the river is blood, yet men drink of it. Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water.

my comments: Blood mentioned on the first excerpt was probably about crime that was so terrifying around that time. The second, was indeed somekind of simile. Blood is a simile in it... blood here represents life... thats why people drink it. Next... "Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water" was symbolized oppression to other people... I mean one oppressed people (drain they life) as so we could live.

It was a very interesting... but as to draw conclusion to describe 10 plagues was rather illusion.


I agree Zampeada, that is why it is not my main support for an Old Kingdom Exodus.
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Horemheb
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: None of them Reply with quote

Don't think it was any of them. Moses was a mythical figure. While he was very important for religion he has no historical value. Everything I have read here is highly speculative and very very circumstantial. Wecannot allow history to be tainted by any speculation no matter how much we desire to see it. It is our responsibilty to use only the best scholarship avilable.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for you opinion Horemheb. not there doesn't mean it didn't exist. there were many things were not recorded but doesn't mean not exist. one day you'll understand...
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2004 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: None of them Reply with quote

Horemheb wrote:
Don't think it was any of them. Moses was a mythical figure. While he was very important for religion he has no historical value. Everything I have read here is highly speculative and very very circumstantial. Wecannot allow history to be tainted by any speculation no matter how much we desire to see it. It is our responsibilty to use only the best scholarship avilable.


Nothing here is any more speculative than what is written by experts claiming to have real knowlege. Of course, books like the Bible Unearthed, Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Siblerman aren't going to use any data that weakens their case. Such as Shoshenq I never made any claim of sacking Jerusalem or Gezer for that matter. (Mysliwiec, 1993) While Ramesses II does make such a claim (Rohl 1995). That the Merenptah's Victory Stela mentions a prince of Israel, not a judge or tribal chieftian.

You are right that it is our responsibility to use only the best scholarship available. But we need to use our heads as well. If in 5000 years, someone is wondering if George Washington really lived, fathered his nation, lead its military, etc. That person if he looks into the history of the USA at any period other than 1774-1790 will not find George Washington and his work. The same with Moses, Horemheb. To find him if he existed one must look at the correct time of Moses. As it stands today. The means used to find Moses are full of errors... the results of that search are as error prone as are the methods used to find it. The computer age has given us a wonder phrase garabage in garabage out. It is the same with scholarships claim that Moses is a myth simply because they used garabage to come to that understanding.

Again Horemheb it is your right to believe as you, and your education leads to be believe. However not everyone is Horemheb, nor shares his education. My own education leads to me to understand that Moses was a real live person once and that he most likely lived during the 6th Dynasty.
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