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How they died.
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zampeada
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 4:47 am    Post subject: How they died. Reply with quote

I would like to know how exactly the following pharaoh died based on the mummies condition right before they died:

1. Ramses II
2. Merenptah
3. Thutmose III
4. Hapsetsut
5. Akhenaten

or other pharaoh.

are they naturally died... or killed. where to find the info?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: How they died. Reply with quote

[quote="zampeada"]I would like to know how exactly the following pharaoh died based on the mummies condition right before they died:

1. Ramses II
2. Merenptah
3. Thutmose III
4. Hapsetsut
5. Akhenaten

or other pharaoh.

are they naturally died... or killed. where to find the info?

Do a search on Google for each for more information.
1. Rameses II--old age
2. Merenptah--mummy shows signs of an illness--posssibly smallpox
3. Thutmose III--unknown
4. Hapshetsut--we haven't her mummy, so can't verify cause of death
5. Akhenaton--same as 4.

I hope this helps...
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zampeada
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what we never found their mummies? so how exactly we know that they are really exist then?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="zampeada"]what we never found their mummies? so how exactly we know that they are really exist then?
I'm not sure of what you're asking. How do we know the mummies exist? We don't--for all practical purposes, it is assumed the mummies of Akhenaton and Hapshepsut were destroyed in ancient times.
How do we know that they existed? Mainly through excavation and detective work on the part of Egyptologist. In most cases, Egyptians themselves left written records of the Pharaohs. In some cases, our knowledge is based on excavation alone.
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ZericsKirog
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II, I agree with him...
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZericsKirog wrote:
Osiris II, I agree with him...


How do we know that Akhenaten, Hatshepsut lived?

We have the remains of Akhetaten the City of the Sun Disk built by Akhenaten. We have the tombs in Thebes, Akhetaten, Memphis of Akhenaten's officals that use his name within their tombs. We have the Atenist temples at Thebes, Akhetaten, Heliopolis where we find the name of Akhenaten. We have his words in letters, on stelas, we have sculptures and paintings of him and his family. It is on this evidence that scholars can claim and with some certainty. That a Pharaoh by the name of Akhetaten lived between the reigns of Amenhotep III and Tutankhamun. In fact it was the discovery of Akhetaten and Akhenaten in the early 1800's that gave scholars the first clue that there was a Pharaoh by the name of Tutankhaten (Tutankhamun).

As for the Pharaoh Hatshepsut, we have her temple remains, two tomb remains in the Valley of Kings, and numerous sculptures of her as King of Egypt found in a debris field. We have the beautiful restored temple of Hatshepsut at Karnak, and her Obelisks. These give proof that while we don't have her body, yet... she most certainly did exist.

We don't have the remains of Pharaoh Djoser of the 3rd Dynasty but i don't know anyone that questions if he lived or built the Step Pyramid. We have no remains of the 4th Dynasty Pharaohs but again no one doubts that they lived. We are talking about the remains of human beings that lived 3,000 plus years ago. That anything remains of their lives is a miracle, if you ask me.
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ZericsKirog
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sekhmet wrote:
ZericsKirog wrote:
Osiris II, I agree with him...


How do we know that Akhenaten, Hatshepsut lived?

We have the remains of Akhetaten the City of the Sun Disk built by Akhenaten. We have the tombs in Thebes, Akhetaten, Memphis of Akhenaten's officals that use his name within their tombs. We have the Atenist temples at Thebes, Akhetaten, Heliopolis where we find the name of Akhenaten. We have his words in letters, on stelas, we have sculptures and paintings of him and his family. It is on this evidence that scholars can claim and with some certainty. That a Pharaoh by the name of Akhetaten lived between the reigns of Amenhotep III and Tutankhamun. In fact it was the discovery of Akhetaten and Akhenaten in the early 1800's that gave scholars the first clue that there was a Pharaoh by the name of Tutankhaten (Tutankhamun).

As for the Pharaoh Hatshepsut, we have her temple remains, two tomb remains in the Valley of Kings, and numerous sculptures of her as King of Egypt found in a debris field. We have the beautiful restored temple of Hatshepsut at Karnak, and her Obelisks. These give proof that while we don't have her body, yet... she most certainly did exist.

We don't have the remains of Pharaoh Djoser of the 3rd Dynasty but i don't know anyone that questions if he lived or built the Step Pyramid. We have no remains of the 4th Dynasty Pharaohs but again no one doubts that they lived. We are talking about the remains of human beings that lived 3,000 plus years ago. That anything remains of their lives is a miracle, if you ask me.


It was not know how they dead for cause... It was hard to find any the book, internet, ect... I try find for both of them. It was not saying about them. I think they are ill. I guess. I am not sure about both of them... Confused
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a mummy that, it's thought, MAY be Hapshepsut.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Maatkare (Hatshepsut)
c.1473-1458BC (18th Dynasty)

The only hint as to the fate of Queen Hatshepsut's burial came from the Deir el-Bahri cache, where a wooden box containing her liver or spleen was found. It was assumed that this was all that the restoration teams had been possible to salvage.

In the spring of 1903, Howard Cater discovered a small, one-room tomb (now known as KV60) at the entrance to the tomb of Montuherkhepshef, a son of Rameses IX. It was in a sorry state, and all that remained were two stripped female mummies and the lower half of a badly-damaged coffin.

This coffin identified the occupant as one In, and Carter suggested that tomb had been made for two nurses of Tuthmosis IV. However, later writers have convincingly argued that the tomb belonged to the wet-nurse of Queen Hatshepsut - Sitre/In, and the tomb's proximity to Hatshepsut's adds some weight to that conclusion.

The mummy and coffin of Sitre/In were sent to Cairo shortly after discovery, and the tomb was neglected and forgotten about.

Recently the tomb was re-discovered by Donald Ryan, and he was surprised to find the second female mummy still in place where Carter had left it in 1906. The mummy's arms and hands are said to be in the classic position of royal women, and this had led to much speculation that this is the mummy of Queen Hatshepsut. (For more on the position of arms in royal female mummies, see my essay The Identity of Mummy 61065).

Donald Ryan has tended to avoid this speculation, claiming only that the mummy appears to be that of an elderly royal woman of the 18th Dynasty. There is no doubt, though, that the mummy is very Tuthmoside in appearance.

Donald Ryan and his team built a new coffin for the mummy and it rests in KV60 to this day. Few photographs of the mummy exist and no DNA samples were taken, which is especially unfortunate since DNA samples do exist from the early Tuthmosides. It would also be interesting to see a DNA comparison made between the mummy and the contents of the box found in the Deir el-Bahri cache.

So, the jury is still out on Hatshepsut's mummy.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:

Recently the tomb was re-discovered by Donald Ryan, and he was surprised to find the second female mummy still in place where Carter had left it in 1906. The mummy's arms and hands are said to be in the classic position of royal women, and this had led to much speculation that this is the mummy of Queen Hatshepsut. (For more on the position of arms in royal female mummies, see my essay The Identity of Mummy 61065).

Donald Ryan has tended to avoid this speculation, claiming only that the mummy appears to be that of an elderly royal woman of the 18th Dynasty. There is no doubt, though, that the mummy is very Tuthmoside in appearance.

Donald Ryan and his team built a new coffin for the mummy and it rests in KV60 to this day. Few photographs of the mummy exist and no DNA samples were taken, which is especially unfortunate since DNA samples do exist from the early Tuthmosides. It would also be interesting to see a DNA comparison made between the mummy and the contents of the box found in the Deir el-Bahri cache.

So, the jury is still out on Hatshepsut's mummy.


Since Hatshepsut died supposedly as a male Pharaoh, i would expect her to have her arms in the Pharaonic position not that of a queen. Especially since at the time of her funeral Tuthmoses III hadn't started his destruction of her Pharaonic claims.
Myself, i tend to consider this mummy as the remains of Tiy, the wife of Amenhotep III.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you read my post more carefully, Sekhmet, you'll see that I stated it to be only a theory.
The position of her arms is rather a big question. Before she was Pharaoh, she was the wife of a king and the daughter of a king. I'm sure she would want to be buried as Pharaoh--but those intrusted with preparing her body for burial may have had different ideas. We just don't know for sure.
As it says in the article, some DNA testing done on the internal organs they are positive are Hapshepsut's and the mummy in question would prove, one way or another, if it is her mummy. What makes you think it's Tiye? Again, it's possible. But wouldn't Tiye, if she was not found in her own tomb, more likely be in that of her husband or, as speculted, in a cache?
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
If you read my post more carefully, Sekhmet, you'll see that I stated it to be only a theory.
The position of her arms is rather a big question. Before she was Pharaoh, she was the wife of a king and the daughter of a king. I'm sure she would want to be buried as Pharaoh--but those intrusted with preparing her body for burial may have had different ideas. We just don't know for sure.
As it says in the article, some DNA testing done on the internal organs they are positive are Hapshepsut's and the mummy in question would prove, one way or another, if it is her mummy. What makes you think it's Tiye? Again, it's possible. But wouldn't Tiye, if she was not found in her own tomb, more likely be in that of her husband or, as speculted, in a cache?


Hi Osiris II Smile Why i believe the body to be that of Queen Tiy?
1) She did die as an elderly queen, not Pharaoh.
2) She die during the rule of her son, the Atenist. He buried her in the finest Atentist arts available.
3) She may have been buried originally, or post originally with the remains of her husband.
4) Regardless of where she was buried. When her remains were discovered, (if in fact either of the two remaining 18th dynasty royal females are her.) she would have been covered with Atentist artwork. A very distrubing thought to the priest charged with protecting and reburial of the royals.
5) Since by the time, the reburial priests would have found her. Knowledge of the Atentist cult would have been forgotten. ( unless the temples themselves kept alive some story of the Atentist Pharaoh and his war against them) They may have buried her, with her husband and other family members. However i find that unlikely.
6) Ancient mankind tended to be highly superstitious especially in relation to religion, and burials. i question, if religious priests would rebury a blantently (as Tiy's original burial goods would suggest she be) non-Amun worshipping woman with the dead of Amun. My answer would have to be no, they wouldn't. Hence my reason as to why these remains are Queen Tiy and no one else.
7) Then there is the age of the lady, it is listed as elderly. Tiy had adult grandchildren when she died, if we accept that Meketaten died giving birth. While Akhenaten, himself is considered to be one of her younger children, if his oldest girls were capable of having chldren. Tiy must have been elderly vs middled age. While Hatshepsut died not long after her daughter, leaving no known grandchildren which would tend to indicate that unlike Tiy, she died closer to being middle aged than elderly.


As to in which position Hatshepsut's arms would have been buried. Ancient Egyptians believed that the dead could harm them if the dead was displeased in someway. Not burying Hatshepsut as Pharaoh would have displeased her. She lived and died as Pharaoh. i don't believe anyone could provide a satisfactory answer as to why in death she would want a demotion in rank or power.

It would be offensive to the gods to bury a woman as Pharaoh... not after she had been accepted by them for X number of years as a living god Pharaoh much to Egypt's success.

i do believe that she was buried as a Pharaoh.

Nor, does it make sence that her liver and spleen were reburied in one place and the rest of her someplace else. i happen to believe that the liver and spleen are all that will ever be found of her. Likewise what reason would there have been to bury Hatshepsut alone? Espeically if she had been buried as this elderly woman had been as a queen? It isn't as if, the reburial came during the 18th dynasty which might have had some reason for such a burial. But in the 21st Dynasty when most of these reburials took place?

Thanks Osiris II!
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did they not find a lock of hair from Queen Tiy in the Tomb of Tutankhamun. buried inside its own tiny sarcophagus? I remember reading an article in which it said that DNA analysis on the hair from the tomb and hair from the elder lady showed that they were the same person. Am I the only one who thinks this because I am sure I haven't made it up in my head. If they haven't done that test wouldn't it be a good idea to do it? Just to see if it really is her.
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Si-amun wrote:
Did they not find a lock of hair from Queen Tiy in the Tomb of Tutankhamun. buried inside its own tiny sarcophagus? I remember reading an article in which it said that DNA analysis on the hair from the tomb and hair from the elder lady showed that they were the same person. Am I the only one who thinks this because I am sure I haven't made it up in my head. If they haven't done that test wouldn't it be a good idea to do it? Just to see if it really is her.


No you aren't the only one that thinks that Smile However Dr. Susan James presents a logical and easy answer as to why Nefertiti's hair would be in a case with Tiy's name on it. See KMT A Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt Volume 12, Number 2, Summer 2001, pages 42-50. "Who is the Mummy of Elder Lady?" Nor was it a DNA test, it was a standard test for comparison, much less destructive and available much earlier than DNA testing.

The age of Elder Lady (approx. 30-35 with a mean age of 32*) isn't really agreeable with what is known about Queen Tiy as well. Like i mention she had adult grandchildren when she died making her more likely to be elderly than middle aged as Elder Lady is.

*See KMTA Modern Journal of Ancient Egypt Volume 14, Number 3 Fall 2003 pg 26. Susan James, "Dueling Nefertitis in KV36".
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks for that. Do you think it is Nefertiti then? I am still not sure, obviously my orthodoxy has just boiled to the surface! lol
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Sekhmet
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Si-amun wrote:
Wow, thanks for that. Do you think it is Nefertiti then? I am still not sure, obviously my orthodoxy has just boiled to the surface! lol


LOL Si-Amun Smile you're welcome. And yes, i do believe that Elder Lady is Nefertiti. Dr. James original article convinced me hook, line, and sinker. She did her homework for the article "Who is the Mummy of Elder Lady?" Her use of pictures was dramatic but what really convinced me was her reasonable, easy, and logical reasoning as to why Nefertiti's hair would be in a coffinnette with the name of Tiy. It wasn't wild twisted reasonings and that sealed my decision.

Then when she did the second article on the "Dueling Nefertiti's" she again had done her homework. Going even deeper into why Elder Lady was Nefertiti, and provided ample rebuttles on why Younger Lady wasn't.
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