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Pepy II's longest Reign yet found

 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Pepy II's longest Reign yet found Reply with quote

Yes, despite Ramesses II long reign of 64 years. Pepy the Second has the longest reign yet found in Ancient Egypt. While Manetho states he ruled for 99 years, the highest date yet found by archaeology, for this Pharaoh is an amazing 67 years. While folks marvel at the 64 years of Ramesses who came to the throne as a young man with a family in the 13th century BCE. Pepy II came to the throne as a child on his mother's knee in the 23rd century BCE. Almost a thousand years before Ramesses II!

Pepy II came to the throne after the death of his older brother Pharaoh Merenre, both were sons of Pharaoh Pepy I. These boys were also cousins as well as half brothers. Their mothers were the daughters of Lord Khuni of Abydene. Upon their marriage to Pepy I they were renamed Ankhenesmerire I and II meaning "Merire lives for her". Ankhenesmerire II is famous in the sculpture of her holding her son Pharaoh Pepy II. While still a child his mother and uncle ruled in his name. It is his childish letter to the expedition leader bringing a Nubian drawf back to Pharaoh. That so delights the reader with his orders for the care of the drawf to make sure it survives the trip.

When Pepy II came to the throne, the Old Kingdom he ruled was still the a great power. During his long reign power began to shift from Pharaoh to the barons throughout the land. A lower standard of living is also noted in the remains of this time period. At his death the Old Kingdom collapsed. He left no male heir, and it is his successor who became the first true woman ruler of Egypt Queen Nitokerty, who is known only from later texts. From her Manetho says the next rulers of Egypt were 70 Pharaohs in 70 days. The Old Kingdom was in collapse and it would take until the 12th Dynasty before Egypt saw it's power return.

However long Pepy II ruled, 99 years or just 67 he remains the longest reigning Pharaoh Egypt knew.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:08 am    Post subject: Advertisement

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Neb-Ma'at-Re
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest 2 ,

From what source did you find Manetho's 99 year reign of Pepi II? Everything I found he claims a 94 year reign of Pepi II. Also, what piece of evidence has his reign at a maximum 67 years? The Turin Kinglist, which was recorded during the reign of Ramses II, has Pepi II listed with a 90 year reign. http://www.ancient-egypt.org/glossary/turin_kinglist/

I'm quite curious!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:50 pm    Post subject: Sources Reply with quote

Neb-Ma'at-Re is quiet right Pepy II is credited with a 94 year reign by Manetho. Not the 99 that i originally posted. All i can say about that is it must have been a transcriptional error that editing missed. Thank you Neb-Ma'at-Re for noticing it and bringing it to my attention. Very Happy

For the 67 years of actual rule. Please see Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford, Princeton University Press, 1992 pg 57-58. " The last dated text of the reign is dated to year 67."

For a less precise date please see A History of Ancient Egypt, by Nicolas Grimal, Blackwell Publishers, 1999 pg 89. "...but the latest known regnal date is that of the thirty-third census, which would suggest a definite lenght of about fifty to seventy years."

Again thank you very much Neb-Ma'at-Re for finding that error Very Happy
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sambacats
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to barge in, but you still have your data wrong.

It was Ramses II, who reigned 67 years.
And Pepi II's last attested Biennial Cattle Count is not the 33rd anymore but the year after the 31st count, meaning that he reigned at least 63 years.

It is interesting to note here that some scholars such as Von Beckerath already believed Pepi IIs reign-length of 94 years according to Manetho to be likely a misreading of long-lost original texts by early historians, and ascribed him a seemingly more realistic figure of 64 years, which seems more feasible if he was succeeded by his son as Egyptian tradition states, rather than a grandson. Pepi II's highest attested date is the "Year after the 31st Count, 1st Month of Shemu, day 20" from Hatnub graffito No.7, according to Spalinger (Anthony Spalinger, Dated Texts of the Old Kingdom, SAK 21, 1994, p.308). On the Egyptian Biennial Cattle Count dating system, the 31st Count would be equivalent to Pepi II's Year 62, so his last attested date is his Year 63, which comforms well with the suggestion of a 64 year reign for him by Von Beckerath, given the noticeable absence of known dates for Pepi II from his 33rd to 47th Count.

A previous suggestion by Hans Goedicke that the Year of the 33rd Count appears for Pepi II in a royal decree for the mortuary cult of Queen Udjebten was withdrawn by Goedicke in 1988 in favour of a reading of 'the Year of the 24th Count' instead, noted Spalinger (Anthony Spalinger, Dated Texts of the Old Kingdom, SAK 21, 1994, p.308).

So the pharaoh with the longest attested reign is still Ramses II Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepi II (reigned c. 2278 BCc. 2184 BC) was a pharaoh of the Sixth dynasty in Egypt's Old Kingdom. His throne name, Neferkare (Nefer-ka-Re), means "Beautiful is the Ka of Re". He succeeded to the throne at age six, after the death of Merenre I, and is[b] generally credited with having the longest reign of any monarch in history at 94 years[/b] (c. 2278 BC - c. 2184 BC), though this figure has been disputed by some Egyptologists who favour a shorter reign length of 64 years, given the absence of attested dates known for Pepi after his 31st Count, which would equate to 62 years assuming the count to be biennial.

References:
* Dodson, Aidan. Hilton, Dyan. 2004. The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt, Thames & Hudson
* Dodson, Aidan. "An Eternal Harem: Tombs of the Royal Families of Ancient Egypt. Part One: In the Beginning". KMT. Summer 2004.
* Shaw, Ian. Nicholson, Paul. 1995. The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, Harry N. Abrams, Inc. Publishers.
* Spalinger, Anthony. Dated Texts of the Old Kingdom, SAK 21, (1994), pp. 307-308
* Oakes, Lorna and Lucia Gahlun. 2005. Ancient Egypt. Anness Publishing Limited.
* Perelli, Rosanna, "Statuette of Pepi II" in Francesca Tiradriti (editor), The Treasures of the Egyptian Museum, American University in Cairo Press, 1999, p. 89.

There has been some speculation that he was in a homosexual relationship with one of his generals.
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sambacats
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your list of sources is impressive, but the fact remains that:

the variously coventionally given dates for the Early and Old Kingdom are admittedly based on pure speculation. The calibrated carbon chronology that dominates all archaelogical surveys of today rather would date Pepi II around 2400-2350 BC on average, which I found to be correct and solving nigh all synchronism problems and anomalies egyptologists are currently faced with.

Regarding Pepi II's extreme reign-length of 94 years, and even his age of accession, it is only based on a single unattested statement of Manetho, and a similar entry of 90+ years found in the greatly flawed Turin Canon. The last attested year of Pepi II is the year after his 31st Count. Since the 1st Count always occured in a kings second year, it follows that the 31st Count, was Pepi II's year 62, and the year after must therefore have been year 63 (see Toby A.H. Wilkinson: 'Royal Annals of Ancient Egypt, the Palermo Stone and its associated fragments', Kegan Paul International, London & New York, 2000, p. 63 ff.). If you and your sources however insist on year 62 to be the last attested year, that's fine with me. Whatever the case, it shows that Pepi II rather reigned only 64 years than 94 years, which simply must have been a single scribal error already made by the authors of the Turin Canon. Egyptologists had to admit - much to their dismay - that the Turin Canon none of its reign-lengths correct and cannot be relied on at all (the author seems to be guessing most of the time), in stark contrast to Manetho who has nearly all of his reign-lengths bcorrect. The Turin Canon doesn't even have Pepi I's reign-length (20 years) correct, while the monuments give him at least 48-50 years, thus basically confirming Manetho's 53 years for Pepi I.
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Akhnaton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious to know if any image of Pepi II has ever been found. I have never come across any in books.
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sambacats
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/AnkhnesmeryreII-and-Son-PepiII-SideView_BrooklynMuseum.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AnkhnesmeryreII-and-Son-PepiII-SideView_BrooklynMuseum.png&h=2048&w=1536&sz=2160&tbnid=W7FZUoMoO_q7MM::&tbnh=150&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpepi%2BII%2Bimage&hl=nl&usg=__OXkk9YPFExR0-2cYPkSxmQOcN3A=&ei=DZvsSc72GdnR-Qbf6MTXBQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image
Pepi II figured as a child sitting on his mother's lap.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pepi2.jpg
Pepi II figured as a Horus-child in an unusual posture.[/url]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[img]http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/AnkhnesmeryreII-and-Son-PepiII-SideView_BrooklynMuseum.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AnkhnesmeryreII-and-Son-PepiII-SideView_BrooklynMuseum.png&h=2048&w=1536&sz=2160&tbnid=W7FZUoMoO_q7MM::&tbnh=150&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpepi%2BII%2Bimage&hl=nl&usg=__OXkk9YPFExR0-2cYPkSxmQOcN3A=&ei=DZvsSc72GdnR-Qbf6MTXBQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image[/img]
Pepi II figured as a child sitting on his mother's lap.


Pepi II figured as a Horus-child in an unusual posture.[/img]
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sambacats
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Pepi II figured as a child sitting on his mother's lap.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sambacats, I stand by my sources. If you had read my entry with more care, you would have found the following, which, basically, agrees with your assessment:

(c. 2278 BC - c. 2184 BC), though this figure has been disputed by some Egyptologists who favour a shorter reign length of 64 years, given the absence of attested dates known for Pepi after his 31st Count, which would equate to 62 years assuming the count to be biennial.
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sambacats
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Osiris,

Yes, of course, I'm not disputing any of that. I just want to stress that sources are not enough to convince me. I also recommend the use common sense and precision in details. Ninetynine percent of all sources are simply hands on one belly, copying without being critical each other or some commonly revered source. They and especially the media are generally copycats, with hardly any deep thought or research of their own, relying greatly on mere opinions (not the evidence). My point here is actually only regarding what is actually Pepi II's last attested year Pepi II (all the rest is pure speculation as all egyptologists know):

Is it the year of Count 31 or is it the year after Count 31, benial or not. Which is it? I must admit I do not know who has correct answer, since I didn't read this monumental text myself, and I am not a linguist to be able to do so, so in this case I myself would have to rely on the sources to my avail. If Count 31 was the last attested year, it would be year 62 if biennial. If the year after Count 31 was the last attested, it would be year 63 if biennial. Do you know who of all the known sources is right? It's a small detail, but I like such details. In this case it must be the one or the other.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi sambacats Very Happy
Thank you a million for posting those wonderful images of Pepi II Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice sharing!
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

re: Years 63 to 94 not being attested - how many records are there of dates in years 1 to 62?. If there are only a few then the last 30 years could just be non attested.
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