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Osiris

 
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Do you think Osiris was real?
1)Yes
36%
 36%  [ 4 ]
2)No
36%
 36%  [ 4 ]
3)Other...
27%
 27%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 11

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Daughter_of_Ra
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:45 am    Post subject: Osiris Reply with quote

I have recentlty read the book Egyptology: Search for the tomb of Osiris, And it got me thinking.
Could Osiris have been an an actual king?!
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Lostris
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, I think no. I haven't read that book but I always thought Osiris is only a mythology character. What does that book write?
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Si-amun
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to be awkward here and say other. Although he may or may not have existed in historical context, does he exist or did he exist as a thought or a idea, if this is the case then in some form Osiris did exist, even if it was only as a concept.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, wasn't it Menes (I think that was his name) that originally united the Northern and Southern regions of Egypt? In The Egyptians: by Van Duyn, it is said that the king had 38 state-like regions along the Nile, where he would travel up and down the river for easy access to each group. Now, whether the groups were originally tribes, or if they were appointed is not known.

Perhaps Menes was Osiris in another name?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted NO, but I like Si-amun's post about Osiris being real as a concept because in the Egyptian mind he was real. That's a great way to look at it.

The ancient Egyptians did believe that Osiris was their first king, originally a mortal man enthroned by Re, but historically speaking there's no evidence that an actual king ever took that name. In his post Unas mentioned Meni (called Menes by the Greeks), and in the famous kings list at the Osireion at Abydos he is listed as the first king of Egypt. We're not sure yet who the actual first king was, though Meni is certainly a candidate. So is Narmer, though this may be just another part of the titulary of one of the earliest kings. There's even evidence now that a king named Scorpion did indeed exist, though he may have been more of a late predynastic powerful regional ruler than what we think of as pharaoh.

Many Egyptologists share a belief that Osiris was not even originally Egyptian but a deity imported from a foreign culture in the formative stages of distant predynastic times. There's certainly evidence for it. His Egyptian name, for instance, was 3sir or wsir (depending on how you prefer to say it), and this name is not really even Egyptian in nature. And at first Osiris wasn't even the great lord of the dead but a minor fertility god, an aspect he maintained down through the ages. In fact, Anubis was most likely the first lord of the dead, or possibly his canid "cousin" Wepwawet.
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Kiya
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally posted by Daughter_of_Ra

Quote:
have recentlty read the book Egyptology: Search for the tomb of Osiris, And it got me thinking.
Could Osiris have been an an actual king?!


I'm going to be awkward and say 'other' also.

Osiris may have been like King Arthur. Possible a real figure who has become so shrouded in myth and legend that no one is sure if he is real or not. I personally believe Arthur was based on a real life person but from some books that I have read Arthur may not have been his real name, more like a title. I believe it translate something like 'Bear' or 'Great Bear'.

Slightly off topic:-) Sorry:-)
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiya wrote:
Osiris may have been like King Arthur. Possible a real figure who has become so shrouded in myth and legend that no one is sure if he is real or not. I personally believe Arthur was based on a real life person but from some books that I have read Arthur may not have been his real name, more like a title. I believe it translate something like 'Bear' or 'Great Bear'.


That's actually a pretty good analogy. Cool I'd say other, though I'd like to say YES, I'd look like a damn fool. Shocked Though I'd LOVE to believe there was actually an Osiris...

But I totally agree on that. It could've been a pharaoh who affectionately was called "Osiris", probably because he had the same...qualities? Or, he took the name of "Osiris" when he came to power? For him to be called by that, he sure as Hell would've been a good and just ruler. I see Osiris not only as a fatherly figure--with the Horus stories and all--but as someone who is fair and reasonable in thier desisions.

....But I could be wrong, really.... Confused Who really knows for sure? Maybe his name was really Osiris, but not the same guy!!! Laughing Laughing Kind of like...Imhotep. When he died, he became a legened and was even considered a God later on. And nobody found his tomb until--I saw this on T.V.--they thought they did, but they have to wait until the next digging season to do anything.

And I know what all of you are gonna say, "Well, there was EVIDENCE of Imhotep found, but nothing of a king called Osiris!!". This is also like the Scorpian King, too. We all think it's just a myth, but then we find something, evidence or a reference, to that king that make us say, "Wow! Where did THAT come from?!". Shocked Shocked

I'd actually be slightly amused and baffled if they found something on "King Osiris", but even that is just a fantasy. It's something I'd like to believe, but... Sad Sad Sadly, no...

...It's early in the morning, forgive me if my ranting is spinning around everywhere. Sad Confused Shocked I'm trying to make the best point that I can, really...

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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They've actually found evidence of a "Scorpion King," though to consider him on par with a pharaoh would be a bit of a stretch. He was probably a very late predynastic ruler, and no doubt the lord of a powerful proto-nome.

There's no question Imhotep was a real man. Enough evidence exists to attest to that, though his tomb has yet to be found. What a find that will someday be! Wouldn't you just want to be there for that one?

The latest spin on the "tomb" of Osiris is a deep shaft tomb on the Giza Plateau that has only recently become explorable to modern excavators because of a drop in the water table--the bottom courses had always been under water in modern times. There are numerous niches and side cavities in which later bodies had been interred, but the very bottom of the tomb is such that it somewhat resembles the Osiride cenotaph built by Seti I at Abydos, complete with a little "island" surrounded by a pool to represent the primeval mound.

Let's be realistic, though. There is no evidence of any substance that Osiris was ever a real, living man--other than in the mythology of ancient Egypt. Many Egyptologists feel that this deity was actually imported from a different culture deep in prehistoric times, and to be sure Osiris was originally a fairly minor fertility god (an aspect which he never lost, even after becoming the premier lord of the dead, supplanting Anubis in that role). Even the Egyptian name by which Osiris went--wsir or 3sir--is not Egyptian in nature, and linguists still struggle over what exactly it may have meant to the ancient Egyptians; we have a hard time trying to translate it today.

Yeah, I'm a hardcore skeptic. Boring old me. I try not to venture beyond what the evidence tells us.

I can add that I love your latest signature artwork, tutness. Very moving. Wink
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
There's no question Imhotep was a real man. Enough evidence exists to attest to that, though his tomb has yet to be found. What a find that will someday be! Wouldn't you just want to be there for that one?


Ha, I know!! My mom was the one that actually got me to watch this show on it on the Discovery Times Channel, and they were GOING to check it out, but noooo...digging season over, people!! It sucks!! I'm too impatient to wait!!! Mad Sad Laughing Laughing

kmt_sesh wrote:
Let's be realistic, though. There is no evidence of any substance that Osiris was ever a real, living man--other than in the mythology of ancient Egypt. Many Egyptologists feel that this deity was actually imported from a different culture deep in prehistoric times, and to be sure Osiris was originally a fairly minor fertility god (an aspect which he never lost, even after becoming the premier lord of the dead, supplanting Anubis in that role). Even the Egyptian name by which Osiris went--wsir or 3sir--is not Egyptian in nature, and linguists still struggle over what exactly it may have meant to the ancient Egyptians; we have a hard time trying to translate it today.


I am realistic, which is why I said I'd LIKE to believe, but other than that, it's KINDA hard to! Laughing Laughing Nevertheless, he is symbolic, and even though he came from another culture--Kmt, buddy, bear with me, I NEVER knew THAT much on Osiris--he still gave the Ancient Egyptians something to believe in--he stood for rebirth, for life after death, and recall that the Egyptians believed in all aspects of that, from burying thier possessions with them in tombs or whatnot to preserving thier own bodies through mummification to going through the "Weighing of the Heart" ceremony, and finally living a life better than they had before (Weight of heart pending, of course. Shocked ). Osiris gave them an incentive--to lead a good and honest life, so that they may achieve happiness in the hereafter. (...I'm hoping that's a good enough point to get across...I sound like I'm doing a big "Pro-Osiris" speech, lol. Cool Laughing Laughing ).

kmt_sesh wrote:
Yeah, I'm a hardcore skeptic. Boring old me. I try not to venture beyond what the evidence tells us.

I can add that I love your latest signature artwork, tutness. Very moving. Wink


First, Kmt, I think you're the most interesting and well-read man on the face of the planet, and I love it when I start ranting, you go in and make the most awesome points that make me go.. "..Ohhhh!! I get it now!!". Laughing Laughing Cool

And, thank youuuu!!! All the rest of my art is in the coffee lounge, if you didn't see them yet. AND I got new ones coming in tomorrow!! Yay!! ^__^ Wink My sister said that my signature was moving too. I'd hope so, considering that's when Tut dies the first time in my comic, and Akhenaten is holding his dying son, in his arms...(Yeah, Tut dies three times in my comic, and what a coincidence, OSIRIS brings him back twice out of the 3 times!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing Wink ).

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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...they were GOING to check it out, but noooo...digging season over, people!! It sucks!! I'm too impatient to wait!!!


LOL Don't you just HATE it when that happens? It's like a favorite television show finishing up a season with a killer cliffhanger. Arrgghh! I don't want excuses, I want action, I want to see the tomb discovered. I don't care where they get the money--a university, UNESCO, the Exploration Society, Kentucky Fried Chicken--just get it done!

Quote:
Osiris--he still gave the Ancient Egyptians something to believe in--he stood for rebirth, for life after death, and recall that the Egyptians believed in all aspects of that...


Very true. Osiris was a powerful symbol of life and fertility that appealed to all peoples, from pharaoh to pauper. He was to commoners what Amun-Re was to kings, and in the depths of every night the two joined to regenerate the other (so tells the Books of the Netherworld).

This was one of the chief problems Akhenaten encountered with Atenism. The traditional funerary deities like Osiris and Isis and Anubis and Nephthys were stripped away, and by comparison Atenism offered little of afterlife splendor or hope to the common man.

Quote:
I love it when I start ranting, you go in and make the most awesome points that make me go.. "..Ohhhh!! I get it now!!".


Come now. You do not rant, tutness. You're passionate about your subjects, and that's a whole other matter...a commendable one at that.

Quote:
All the rest of my art is in the coffee lounge, if you didn't see them yet.


Yes, I've been there and seen them. They're terrific. I enjoy your bold colors and the unique proportions with which you render your figures. You're kind of a modern-day Amarna artist. Very Happy I think my favorite is of Akhenaten and Tut standing back to back and bitching about each other. Tut's "Lardass" comment cracked me up. Laughing
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
I don't care where they get the money--a university, UNESCO, the Exploration Society, Kentucky Fried Chicken--just get it done!


KFC?!?!?...Nah, Kmt, my friend, you think too small...Burger King is a MUCH bigger franchise!! Laughing Laughing (Meh, so is McDonald's, but I prefer BK over McD's. Cool Wink Laughing ).

kmt_sesh wrote:
Osiris was a powerful symbol of life and fertility that appealed to all peoples, from pharaoh to pauper. He was to commoners what Amun-Re was to kings, and in the depths of every night the two joined to regenerate the other (so tells the Books of the Netherworld).

This was one of the chief problems Akhenaten encountered with Atenism. The traditional funerary deities like Osiris and Isis and Anubis and Nephthys were stripped away, and by comparison Atenism offered little of afterlife splendor or hope to the common man.


Amun and Osiris joined? Shocked That I ALSO didn't know...Well, like I always say, ya learn somethin' new everyday, right?! Cool Laughing Laughing

And as for Atenism, it still somewhat had an idea for the afterlife...though...I don't understand WHY, if Akhenaten swept away the very Gods that tested you to get there, did he keep that idea for an afterlife if the incentives were gone. Was Aten the new incentive, then? Aten is only a sun disc, though all-powerful and life-giving, it still didn't give the same effect for an afterlife like Osiris did. I can't imagine a Sun disc weighing your heart for purity in order to live a happy life. Shocked What did Aten, symbolically and religiously, accomplish really for the people in Egypt during the reign of Akhenaten? What was Akhenaten's point of an afterlife, then? Why am I asking all of this? Shocked Sorry, but this is one thing about Akhenaten's beliefs that I didn't really get. Crying or Very sad


kmt_sesh wrote:
Come now. You do not rant, tutness. You're passionate about your subjects, and that's a whole other matter...a commendable one at that.


Passionate...meh-heh, I can see it now, "The Passion of the Tut!" Laughing Laughing Laughing Wink Why, I'm glad you think that, thanks buddy!! I really hoped it didn't sound like I was ranitng uselessly! ^__^;;

kmt_sesh wrote:
Yes, I've been there and seen them. They're terrific. I enjoy your bold colors and the unique proportions with which you render your figures. You're kind of a modern-day Amarna artist. Very Happy I think my favorite is of Akhenaten and Tut standing back to back and bitching about each other. Tut's "Lardass" comment cracked me up. Laughing


Bwahahahaaa!!! Laughing Laughing Tut and Akhenaten never get along in the comic in the beginning, it's sooo funny!! They don't HATE each other...they just can't STAND each other. I guess it's cause in my story, Akhenaten stood for the Sun and Tut stood for the moon. Glad you love them!!! ^___^

The modern-day Amarna artist...I like the sound of that!!! As long as it somehow LOOKS like that art--which I intended it to be--then I've achieved my goal for making my whole comic look as authentic as possible!! Very Happy Cool

Speaking of which, let me ask this really quick, does anyone have a link or something where I can find the symbols of the sun disc and the moon? That would be GREATLY appreciated!!! Cool Laughing Laughing Wink

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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't imagine a Sun disc weighing your heart for purity in order to live a happy life.


That's because under Atenism such things were swept away. Gone was the Book of the Dead and its many gods. There was no use for it. In their place were hymns and songs and prayers to the Aten and Akhenaten's ties to it. Exactly what the Aten was supposed to offer the average person in the afterlife is not at all clear, but the promise of eternal life as given by Osiris no longer existed for that stretch of time. (That was Akhenaten's ideal, anyway...there's plentiful evidence that the old ways persisted outside the boundaries of Akhetaten.)

Quote:
Speaking of which, let me ask this really quick, does anyone have a link or something where I can find the symbols of the sun disc and the moon?


Do you mean the Aten sun-disk? The moon is another matter and I've never even thought about it in its relation to the Amarna Period, given that it was usually represented by one or more deities that Akhenaten would most likely have prohibited.
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
That's because under Atenism such things were swept away. Gone was the Book of the Dead and its many gods. There was no use for it. In their place were hymns and songs and prayers to the Aten and Akhenaten's ties to it. Exactly what the Aten was supposed to offer the average person in the afterlife is not at all clear, but the promise of eternal life as given by Osiris no longer existed for that stretch of time. (That was Akhenaten's ideal, anyway...there's plentiful evidence that the old ways persisted outside the boundaries of Akhetaten.)



....Here it comes, Kmt...

....Ohhhhhhh!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing Cool Ok, I think I get it now...though it sucks that most of it is still a mystery. And I recall that certain deities were still worshipped (secretly?) outside Akhetaten.

I saw this one show where it said that if Akhenaten or his followers caught anyone worshipping any other God, they would be tortured or something horrible like that. Again, THIS was on the Discovery Times Channel, and I can't remember the title, but I remember my eyebrows went straight up when I heard that. I thought..."Wasn't Akhenaten a PEACEFULL Pharaoh? I mean, this is the SAME MAN who didn't respond to his neighboring countries when enemies came in and attacked them. This is the Same king who believed that all creatures and humans were ALL equal--enemy or not--under the Aten's rays!!" So, now...I'm angry, upset and utterly baffled by this. Confused Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


kmt_sesh wrote:
Do you mean the Aten sun-disk? The moon is another matter and I've never even thought about it in its relation to the Amarna Period, given that it was usually represented by one or more deities that Akhenaten would most likely have prohibited.


Yes, I need the symbol for the Aten disc, and as for the moon symbol, it doesn't have to do with the Amarna period. It can be any symbol of the moon, or of Khonsu, who I believe is the God of the moon. That's what I meant! ^__^
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I recall that certain deities were still worshipped (secretly?) outside Akhetaten.


This is definitely true. In his seclusion at Akhetaten, Akhenaten could not maintain such rigid control over all of Egypt. The old ways were never entirely abandoned, as is evidence by numerous tombs of the period whose decorative schemes continue to show Osiris and other vignettes of the old deities.

Quote:
I thought..."Wasn't Akhenaten a PEACEFULL Pharaoh? I mean, this is the SAME MAN who didn't respond to his neighboring countries when enemies came in and attacked them.


I don't know how peaceful Akhenaten may have been. Closing important temples, stripping them of their lands and titles and personnel, proscribing against traditional worship...all of this smacks of a certain tyranny. Akhenaten was no doubt at war against the powerful priesthood of Amun, and this could not have been a pleasant time for many people of ancient Egypt. I have no problem seeing Akhenaten as something of a visionary and a renaissance man who preferred peace and idleness to conflict, but he had to stomp on a lot of people to get there.

As for foreign powers like the Hittites effectively encroaching on the vassal states of Egypt, is this evidence of a desire in Akhenaten to avoid warfare, or a sign of apathy and self-involvement in the cult of the Aten? Whatever the case, it certainly infuriated men of action like Horemheb, who couldn't act fast enough to restore the integrity of the Egyptian empire once the "criminal of Akhetaten" was dead and a puppet (Tut) was on the throne.

You must hate me for my dim views on this period, tutness. Where you see peace and serenity, I see strife and political intrigue (and that's one of the things that so draws me to this period). I'm such a cynic. Surprised

Quote:
Yes, I need the symbol for the Aten disc, and as for the moon symbol, it doesn't have to do with the Amarna period. It can be any symbol of the moon, or of Khonsu, who I believe is the God of the moon. That's what I meant! ^__^


The Aten is simple: it's just a sun disk sporting a uraeus whose rays terminate in hands touching ankhs to the lips or faces of the supplicants (usually Akhenaten and clan).

The moon is trickier because it was represented by various deities, depending on when and where you lived in ancient Egypt. You're right that Khonsu is one of the primary lunar deities. His crown often contains a sliver of moon topped by a sun disk (not the Aten, though).

Another prominent lunar deity was our good friend Thoth, particularly in baboon form. As a baboon he might sport the same kind of crown as Khonsu.

I'm never quite sure just how Akhenaten might have viewed Thoth. As far back as the Pyramid Texts it is said that Re traveled across the sky on the wings of Thoth, so there were strong solar connotations, and Akhenaten tended to be kinder to gods that were related to Re. But Thoth's connections with Osiris are even closer, so in the end I'll bet Thoth was just one more of the many deities against which Akhenaten set proscriptions.

Here's a fun Thoth fact. The legend as preserved in the "Contending of Horus and Set" states that Thoth was the son of Horus. Thoth emerged from the forehead of Set, who had consumed some of Horus' semen on lettuce leaves. Very Happy
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the_tutness_is_here
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
I don't know how peaceful Akhenaten may have been. Closing important temples, stripping them of their lands and titles and personnel, proscribing against traditional worship...all of this smacks of a certain tyranny. Akhenaten was no doubt at war against the powerful priesthood of Amun, and this could not have been a pleasant time for many people of ancient Egypt. I have no problem seeing Akhenaten as something of a visionary and a renaissance man who preferred peace and idleness to conflict, but he had to stomp on a lot of people to get there.

You must hate me for my dim views on this period, tutness. Where you see peace and serenity, I see strife and political intrigue (and that's one of the things that so draws me to this period). I'm such a cynic. Surprised


I don't hate you, of all people, Kmt. You are right, sadly, Akhenaten was somewhat of a tyrant BUT, Akhenaten was also a family man, and I see him as caring more for his sons and daughters then outside military forces.

Really, I think that Akhenaten THOUGHT...this is my opinion, my take on it...I think that, maybe he thought he was doing the right thing? His father worshipped Aten also, and growing up, it affected him so much, maybe...he thought that if he could create a perfect place of peace, a Utopia, he could have the same love and respect his father had. I see Akhenaten as a lonely child, who looked different, acted different, from everyone else, and they only turned the other cheek on him. And for all that he did, trying to be loved and adored by all...he died, instead. Crying or Very sad Which I find utterly miserable. For him to be killed(?) because he just wanted respect. How sad...

Kmt, you're not cynic, you're realistic and down to Earth, and somewhat blunt. That is great, since you make me see points more clearly. Cool



kmt_sesh wrote:
Here's a fun Thoth fact. The legend as preserved in the "Contending of Horus and Set" states that Thoth was the son of Horus. Thoth emerged from the forehead of Set, who had consumed some of Horus' semen on lettuce leaves. Very Happy


Ahhh, Yeah, I read that. Re told both Horus and Set to stop fighting. Set seemed like he agreed to it and asked Horus to come to his home. When night fell, they went to bed, and when Set thought that Horus was asleep, Set almost RAPED him to claim dominance over him. But, Horus ended up catching Set's seed with his hand and he ran to his mom, Isis, and cried out, "Look what Set did!!". So, Isis cut off Horus's hand and threw it into the Nile, qucikly replacing it with another. Semen was thought--I read this in an Egyptian mythology book--to be poison, and that was even the word for it. It was believed that it flowed through the body, and a God's semen was extremely dangerous. Isis took Horus's seed and planted it on the Lettuce leaves of Set's garden, and...well, the rest is what Kmt just said. Set thought he won and claimed domincance over Horus, but then it was flipped upside-down. THAT'S clever. Laughing Laughing Cool
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