Ancient Egyptian Forum Forum Index Ancient Egyptian Forum

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Cleopatra, good ruler or the end of an empire?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Ancient Egyptian Forum Forum Index -> Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Cleopatra - a good queen or a hopeless failiure?
Cleopatra was a Great Queen
42%
 42%  [ 11 ]
Cleopatra was a Good Queen
30%
 30%  [ 8 ]
Cleopatra was an Average Queen
15%
 15%  [ 4 ]
Cleopatra was a Bad Queen
11%
 11%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 26

Author Message
Si-amun
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 947
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Cleopatra, good ruler or the end of an empire? Reply with quote

Well, thoughts on Cleopatra are quite varied so I just wondered how you all felt. Was Cleopatra VII a good leader her made her country great, or was she a foolish monarch who threw her empire away to the Romans? What do you all think, what event in her reign do you think show her to be how you think?

I regard her to be a skilled statewoman who made a few bad choices as her reign progressed. I beleive that Cleopatra was far too preoccupied in using Mark Antony than to actually watch the political scene in Rome as evidence was building to show that Octavian was becoming more and more powerful in the earlier years of the Triumvirate. Her eventual decision to spark of a civil war was, in my view, badly planned and hasty. So I think that she was initially a good stateswoman, perhaps not that great a ruler in her early days but one who made various ill informed choices and ultimately paid a huge price for it.
_________________
Thou dost appear beautiful on the horizon of heaven, oh living Amun, he who was the first to live.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Google
Sponsor





PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Advertisement

Back to top
the_tutness_is_here
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 574
Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleopatra....hmm...yeah. Confused She wasn't the BEST queen...I prefer Hatshepsut over her. But, in my opinion, she really had it coming when she let the Romans overwhelm Egypt and, I'm sad to say, she was one of the reasons that the Egyptian empire fell.

There have been many stereotypes on her--seductress, murderer, weak and suicidal. Not to mention...submissive. Shocked Hm...

Speaking of which... Shocked ....There was a special on the Discovery channel that actually said she didn't kill herself, but rather, she was murdered, by Octavian no less O_O; Hn...I wonder...did anyone else see that? I forget the name of the show, and if anyone remembers, that would be greatly appreciated! ^_^ I also forgot how he killed her. Confused Like I said, I saw this back in December, when the Egypt week live shows were on the Discovery channel. Shocked Which is a long time for me. Laughing

_________________
How does it FEEL to lose the one who understood you the MOST? He died to protect you, and YOU were supposed to protect HIM. What a shame...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Hatshepsut76
Prince/Princess


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 211
Location: Roma, Italy

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleopatra did't attract me ever, probably because she was greek, and she lived in the Roman period... the foreign Egypt's dominations I never like them... Like the_tutness_is_here, my favourite Queen/Pharaoh is Hatshepsut! Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Psusennes I
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 913
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't help but blame her for ending the Egyptian Empire, but really there were few options open to her. If she had focused on trade and expansion rather than Mark Anthony she might have been able to form some sort of alliance with Rome to protect Egypt. She certianly chose her friends and enemies poorly.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
the_tutness_is_here
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 574
Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hatshepsut76 wrote:
Cleopatra did't attract me ever, probably because she was greek, and she lived in the Roman period... the foreign Egypt's dominations I never like them... Like the_tutness_is_here, my favourite Queen/Pharaoh is Hatshepsut! Wink


Yay!! Laughing I LOVE Hatshepsut!! Nefertiti would be my second favorite, I don't know why, but...she just is!! Very Happy Hatshepsut, in my opinion, was stronger than Cleopatra, and actually had a better reign than her. Although both were rather short, at least the dynasties kept going after Hatshepsut. Same with Akhenaten, though he was a king, his actions were not as radical as to bring the entire country and its dynasties/traditions to an ultimate end.

....And I still love Hatshepsut!! (Mind you, people, I'm not offending those who love cleopatra!! Wink I'm being NICE about this, I really am...).

_________________
How does it FEEL to lose the one who understood you the MOST? He died to protect you, and YOU were supposed to protect HIM. What a shame...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Lostris
Prince/Princess


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 385
Location: Miskolc, Hungary

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted 'average'. Egypt's fame comes from her (I mean if somebody says 'Egypt' the other thinks about pyramids, mummies and Cleopatra) but I think she wasn't the best queen of Egypt. I prefer Nitokris and Hatshepsut. I like Nitokris, because she was the first (OK, I heard about a queen, who's name was... well her name begin with K Very Happy ) so second, but there's something mysterious about her - being a queen for the first (second... bah!) time. And Hatshepsut simply ruleZ! Cool She didn't want any great wars like Ramses II or Thutmose III - she prefered to solve Egypt's problems on a commercial way. As I heard, she was the ideal of Amenhotep III, one of the greatest kings of Egypt.
_________________
http://belldandy.freeblog.hu --> my blog site
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Lostris
Prince/Princess


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 385
Location: Miskolc, Hungary

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at least that was a stupid thing I posted here. Razz Embarassed Sorry. No queen with K. The first was Nitokris.
_________________
http://belldandy.freeblog.hu --> my blog site


Last edited by Lostris on Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
the_tutness_is_here
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 574
Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lostris, for some reason, I think of Tut or Akhenaten or pyramids or the Great Sphinx when I hear the word "Egypt"....I'm not a big fan of Cleopatra, and I consider her more Roman than Egyptian...I'm not starting a debate here, everyone!! Shocked Please, don't hurt me!! I'm actually waiting for Claude II to come on here and amuse us with his usual ranting!! Laughing Wink And I'm not complaining...it's fun to read his posts, especially in MY case. Very Happy
_________________
How does it FEEL to lose the one who understood you the MOST? He died to protect you, and YOU were supposed to protect HIM. What a shame...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Lostris
Prince/Princess


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 385
Location: Miskolc, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_tutness_is_here wrote:
Lostris, for some reason, I think of Tut or Akhenaten or pyramids or the Great Sphinx when I hear the word "Egypt"....


I meant the people who don't know much about Egypt like us (heh, heh)!
_________________
http://belldandy.freeblog.hu --> my blog site
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Si-amun
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 947
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I adore Cleopatra because....

a) Her life isn't a complete mystery to us like most Egyptian Queens!
b) She ruled at one of the most amazing times for shaping history!
c) She wielded a hell of a lot more power than any other Queen at her height!
d) She comes across as a human being, not some removed from normality deity!
e) There are so many small personal details form her life that are known and make her interesting.
f) Her story alone is simply beautiful, turbulent and amazing.
g) She was a strong woman, she had to fight for more than any other Queen!
h) Through her whole reign as Queen she only tried to better Egypt, not stay happily maintaining what she'd been given.
i) Her reign is a great fusion of cultures that ultimately gave birth to the West!
j) She knew closely some of the most important people from history, Caesar, Cicero, Anthony, Octavian, Herod etc.
k) Her close ancestors built the temples Egypt is famous for today, Edfu, Philae, Esna, Kom-Ombo.
l) We have no body, so her death will always be as mysterious as her life is not.
m) She made herself to be an actual Goddess on earth in a far different way to Hatchepsut, she BECAME Aphrodite.
n) Her story is so tragic that we cant help feeling for her, no matter how much we blame her for ending Egypts Empire.

There are a few reasons I came up with off the top of my head! lol
_________________
Thou dost appear beautiful on the horizon of heaven, oh living Amun, he who was the first to live.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Selket
Egyptian Architect


Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 111
Location: Palatine,IL

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Women of this age were...kind of crazy. Livia Caesar killed her husband Augustus with a pomegrante so that Tiberius could become king.
And he was a poor king at that.
Thank God for Alaric the Visigoth for putting Rome out of it's misery.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
the_tutness_is_here
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 574
Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Si-amun wrote:
Well, I adore Cleopatra because....

a) Her life isn't a complete mystery to us like most Egyptian Queens!
b) She ruled at one of the most amazing times for shaping history!
c) She wielded a hell of a lot more power than any other Queen at her height!
d) She comes across as a human being, not some removed from normality deity!
e) There are so many small personal details form her life that are known and make her interesting.
f) Her story alone is simply beautiful, turbulent and amazing.
g) She was a strong woman, she had to fight for more than any other Queen!
h) Through her whole reign as Queen she only tried to better Egypt, not stay happily maintaining what she'd been given.
i) Her reign is a great fusion of cultures that ultimately gave birth to the West!
j) She knew closely some of the most important people from history, Caesar, Cicero, Anthony, Octavian, Herod etc.
k) Her close ancestors built the temples Egypt is famous for today, Edfu, Philae, Esna, Kom-Ombo.
l) We have no body, so her death will always be as mysterious as her life is not.
m) She made herself to be an actual Goddess on earth in a far different way to Hatchepsut, she BECAME Aphrodite.
n) Her story is so tragic that we cant help feeling for her, no matter how much we blame her for ending Egypts Empire.

There are a few reasons I came up with off the top of my head! lol


Shocked ....Ok, assuming you LOVE Cleopatra, and that's a good thing! lol... Wink Those are all really interesting and valid reasons, and I'm glad that you are proud to stand by your favorite queen!! For that, I applaud you!!! Laughing Laughing Cool
_________________
How does it FEEL to lose the one who understood you the MOST? He died to protect you, and YOU were supposed to protect HIM. What a shame...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kiya
Prince/Princess


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 442
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally posted by his_tutness_uis_here

Quote:
Speaking of which... ....There was a special on the Discovery channel that actually said she didn't kill herself, but rather, she was murdered, by Octavian no less O_O; Hn...I wonder...did anyone else see that? I forget the name of the show, and if anyone remembers, that would be greatly appreciated! ^_^


I think it was something like 'Who Murdered Cleopatra?'. They repeated it on Channel 5 a while back in case anyone is from the uk.

Originally posted by Hatshepsut76
Quote:
Cleopatra did't attract me ever, probably because she was greek, and she lived in the Roman period... the foreign Egypt's dominations I never like them... Like the_tutness_is_here, my favourite Queen/Pharaoh is Hatshepsut!


She is always portrayed as being Greek and I have to admit that is how I have always looked at it but if we judged here by todays standards, which I guess we can'tSmile, she would be considered Egyptian of Greek decent. She was born in Egypt after all.
I would say Nitocris, Sobeknefru, Hatshepsut, Twosret and then the Ptolemaic Queens. You could include Nefertiti if you believe she was actually Smenkhare.


Originally posted by Lostris

Quote:
Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 11:56 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, yes. The first was Khentykaues.


I read some time back that they had re translated Khentkawes titles to meam 'Mother of the Two Kings of Upper and Lower Egypt' instead of 'Queen of Upper and Lower Egypt'. She wasn't the first pharaoh after all!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Tadukhipa
Prince/Princess


Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Egypt did get taken over in the end... But considering the circumstances, she really had very few options. It's not so much Cleopatra-the-ruler that intruiges me as it is Cleopatra-the-person. It isn't the hollywood portrayal (though that can be entertaining at times), but for example the way she knew tons of languages. Plus, looking at the images of the time, she really doesn't look all that attractive actually. It must have taken a really dynamic personality to seduce the most powerful men of the world the way she did.

Back to the topic though. Looking at the rising power of the Romans, she was sort of steering a sinking ship at the time... Maybe some of the old rulers would have been able to make Egypt give a good fight back, but I think that she did as good as most of the other former pharaohs could have done.
_________________
*Tadukhipa*

http://strictlybecca.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
the_tutness_is_here
Pharaoh


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 574
Location: The palace of Tutness!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tadukhipa wrote:
It isn't the hollywood portrayal (though that can be entertaining at times), but for example the way she knew tons of languages. Plus, looking at the images of the time, she really doesn't look all that attractive actually. It must have taken a really dynamic personality to seduce the most powerful men of the world the way she did.


...You know, you have a really good point on that! Though, first Hollywood scares audiences with mummy movies and curses and such, making Cleopatra a more beautiful seductress but yet weak, and The Ten Commandments...The Prince of Egypt...wow. Shocked

And it's true, she didn't win men over with her looks, as in the movies...it was her fierce and dynamic persona that intrigued them, and her power. I've seen images of her...and I believe that back then, looks didn't very well matter...to some...right? Shocked Shocked Confused Cool

Just had to say this, though: I HATE Hollywood stereotypes when it comes to the Ancient Egyptians and mummies and...ee-gad...I'll stop now before I begin to rant on random issues!! Shocked Shocked Sad Laughing Laughing Cool


Kiya Wrote:
Quote:
I think it was something like 'Who Murdered Cleopatra?'.


Thank you, Kiya, I think That's the one!!!!! ^____^ I appreciate it! Very Happy
_________________
How does it FEEL to lose the one who understood you the MOST? He died to protect you, and YOU were supposed to protect HIM. What a shame...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Ancient Egyptian Forum Forum Index -> Queens All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Anti Bot Question MOD - phpBB MOD against Spam Bots
Blocked registrations / posts: 10373 / 0